Martin Sheen, celebrities and their political comments

Great Debates
21

Okay, let me see if I can clarify this.

  1. There are no educational requirements to being a celebrity.
  2. Many of those who are celebrities today got started at a very young age, and therefore probably did not go to college.
  3. Those who did go to college often went to ‘actors colleges’, or took fine arts degrees in drama or theater.

Sure, there are lots of well educated celebrities. Jody Foster, Mira Sorvino, Bill Cosby, and I’m sure lots of others. But the job doesn’t require it, so they are no more likely to be educated than any cross-section of society, and probably less likely because many of them started their careers at a young age.

Those who have the education should use THAT as their credential. Bill Cosby has a Ph.D in education. If he wants to speak on issues of education, I will listen to him. Likewise, if I wanted to learn the best way make a speedball so as not to harsh my buzz, I’ll ask Charlie Sheen or his dad.

Let me repeat: I have no problem with celebrities offering arguments against war. What I DO have a problem with is celebrities trying to get people to support their opinion just because they are a celebrity. Martin Sheen has never offered an argument against the war that I am aware of. All he is said is, “I’m Martin Sheen, and I’m against the war. So you should be against the war too!”

I can’t find any studies proving whether or not celebrities have better or worse educations than the population at large. But let’s look at some of the current people who are arguing against the war:

Martin Sheen - Failed his college entrance exams.
Sean Penn - Graduated from Santa Monica High. No College
Danny Glover - Left state college to attend an actor’s studio
George Clooney - Dropped out of college in his first year
Sheryl Crow - Degree in music
Fred Durst - High School. Thinks ‘agreeance’ is a word.

Now let me repeat: Celebrities have a right to present an argument. What they don’t have is the right to an appeal to authority. They are not in a position to speak authoritatively on these issues. In fact, if you collected 50 people from society at random, you’d have a group of people better qualified to offer their opinions on matters politic. Not just because of education, but also because stars live in an unreal world.

This goes double for social policy issues. At least when it comes to war and foreign policy the isolation of celebrities from day-to-day concerns doesn’t really harm their judgement. But when it comes to matters of employment policy, tax policy, regulatory policy, and other domestic concerns, their opinions should be discounted because they will never have to live under the regulations and taxes they propose. At least not in a way that really affects them.

And that goes for conservatives as well as liberals.

22

Well, then, Sam, by the reasoning of your last paragraph, shouldn’t we also discount the opinions of persons who are not actually citizens of our country? As they “will never have to live under the regulations and taxes they propose. At least not in a way that really affects them.”

I would say no, for the same reason of duty as applies to myself and Mr. Sheen. To paraphrase Ghandi, it may well be that your efforts are useless, that does not relieve you of any responsibility for those efforts.

No doubt, celebrity infers an entirely undeserved significance to the opinions of airheads, dope fiends and Hollywood riff-raff. But the accidental nature of celebrity doesn’t negate civil duty, it underlines it. One has a responsibility to use every bit of personal power to shape the argument, especially when it relates to an issue of such magnitude as war. I can only exploit my acerbic eloquence, if I could exploit my striking resemblance to George Clooney, I would feel obligated to do so. Not simply as a matter of stifled narcissism, but as a civic duty.

Besides which, education is a mark of opportunity more than intellect. Einstein labors in a rice paddy today, Feynmann pulls a ricksha in Bombay. Ignorance is not stupidity, it is the sad lack of access.

No particular intelligenge is required to see the vicious absurdity of our foreign policy, even the French can see that!

23

Yes, I agree. We also should not listen to the numerous “pundits” who have no clue and who mainly exist to spread their one-sided view while spewing hatred against the other. In addition, I submit we also should not listen to politicians. It is, but a career for them. Their appeal to authority is tainted by their personal interests.

24

Well, the British playwright Harold Pinter never went to university, but learned about various instances of injustice on his own and gained wide appreciation for his interest in human rights. He was one of the few Britons knowledgeable about torture in Turkey and the pluses and minuses of the Sandinista government in Nicaragua during the 1980’s. I can understand if you would object to people talking about things they don’t know very well, but a person doesn’t have to attend a university simply to be an legitimate advocate on a political issue.

UnuMondo

25

Yes, and if I ever said, “You should pay more taxes, or less taxes, and you should listen to me because I’m SAM STONE”, then feel free to tell me that my opinion is irrelevant. But if I offer an argument, debate the argument.

That’s all I’m saying. I’ve got no problem with celebrities who want to go on Politically Incorrect and debate issues. I’ve got no problem with celebrities who write op-eds, or do the pundit show circuit offering their opinions, as Mike Farrell has done.

Just don’t expect me to accept what you have to say just because I liked your performance in Apocalypse Now, y’know?

And it’s distressing that I think many of these people have much more influence in public debate than their intelligence and/or education should warrant. But hey, it’s a free country.

Oh, and I agree with you that a formal education is not the only indicator of intelligence or knowledge. But absent that education, you’re going to have to show me some other reason why I should listen to you. If my plumber tells me that he thinks that Afghanistan rebuilding is not going well, why should I listen to him? Of course, it may turn out that he’s a self-studied expert on Afghan politics and history. But since I have no way of knowing, I’ll just have to judge the quality of his arguments. If he doesn’t GIVE an argument, but says instead, “Look, you should believe me because I’m a PLUMBER, damnit!”, then forgive me for not assigning a lot of weight to his opinion.

26

Darn Canucks! Let’s raise thier rent!

27

While I tend to agree with Sam’s position in this thread (i.e., that actors, even famous ones, are no more qualified to comment on foreign/government affairs than your average man-on-the-street), I think that Sam is overplaying the degree to which Sheen et al are saying “agree with me because of who I am”. Sean Penn, in particular, used his position and money to make an argument in the New York Times, not to simply say “trust me”. Likewise, acting as a spokesperson may be playing on your credibility, but not so noxiously as Sam is implying.

But there is a counter-argument to Sam that no one has made, namely that famous actors are generally more worldly than the average man-on-the-street. They’ve travelled a lot more; they’ve researched different roles; they’ve hobnobbed, to some degree, with the rich and famous who actually are powerbrokers in the U.S. Also, yes, if they have degrees, they’re probably in fine arts rather than international relations, but a university degree implies some intelligence and critical thinking ability. One could easily argue that an arts education makes a well-read person, and that a well-read person is somewhat more qualified to offer opinions on anything than the average American, who is relatively less well-read. Even without the fine arts degree, you could argue that an actor is better-read than the average American.

It doesn’t raise Sheen to the level of Madelaine Albright, but it does give him an edge, I think.

28

Why isn’t it just assumed that we can take arguments on their own merits regardless of the person/ people espousing them?
Aren’t there a body of logical fallacies that revolve around associating an argument for good and ill with the person or people who hold them?

29

Yes, but in practice, we are always dependent on authority in some degree because we don’t have the time or the expertise to evaluate every argument.

30

I strongly disagree with this. In fact, I think it’s an argument in my favor.

The rich and famous spend their lives in Potemkin villages. They may travel more, but what they see is extremely distorted by the way in which they see it.

I just read in the paper yesterday that Jennifer Lopez was staying at some five-star hotel, and didn’t like it, so she moved herself and her entourage 90 meters to a second five-star hotel. SIX limousines were used to transport her and her keepers that 90 meters.

Do you think that her stay in that particular location, in the way that she is staying there, gives her a valid opinion on the state of the area? Or might it be more than a bit distorted?

On the other hand, when the average Joe or Josephine visits these countries, they have to ride their transit, stay in average places, eat food in restaraunts where the average local citizens eat, etc. They immerse themselves a lot more in the culture than a celebrity ever will.

And these days, the average person travels quite a bit. Many, many Americans have vacationed in Europe, and many Europeans have vacationed in the United States. Plus, we have a global media. We don’t need celebrities to tell us what it’s like to live in France, unless we want to know what it’s like to live on the French Riviera.

31

When it comes to traveling abroad, Sam you have an enviable advantage over me: a Canadian passport.

32

For musical artists, this may be the case, but in my experience (meaning the experience of my friends who’ve worked on sets, the experience of friends who are actors, and the experience of friends working in general in the film industry), actors get plenty of time with “common folk”. They spend hours on set with gaffers and stage managers; they spend hours in makeup; they work with various technicians and experts on their roles. There’s also the degree to which serious actors will research roles–Billy Bob Thornton, particularly, is apparently religious about researching roles by immersing himself in the lifestyle. They also go to parties at which a lot of the same people appear–a friend in L.A. stood with Martin Sheen, Eric Stolz, and Emilio Estevez at a party while they made lewd comments about Terri Hatcher. This sort of thing is common, according to him (meaning the socializing with regular people, not the lewd comments). A photographer friend in Toronto has shot lots of celebrities, and has comments on his website about what they’re like in person because he spends a lot of time with them. It’s not that I know well-connected people, it’s that it’s not that hard to get close to these people.

In short, I think you seriously overestimate the degree to which successful actors are insulated from the general public.

You didn’t respond to my point about the degree to which actors are better-read people than the average.

33

The Martin Sheen ad is part of the “Win without war” campaign, whose petition letter can be found here.

While the letter is kept obviously short, there are several arguments made, one of which is very compelling to me:

That, more than anything else, bothers me about this upcoming war. I’m betting that Sam Stone and company won’t be nearly as understanding if it is one day used against us. In fact, if Saddam were to attack our country at this very moment, he could do so using the same argument we’re using now.

34

In truth, his argument would be more sound than our own: there is no question whatsoever that we are preparing to attack Iraq, whereas our presumption of “premption” is nothing more than international clairovoyance.

35

I forgot to add, that while the letter is indeed signed by a lot of celebrities, who may or may not be well versed on the issues, it is also signed by such folks as:

Ambassador Jonathan Dean
(U.S. Rep. to NATO Warsaw Pact)

Eugene J. Carroll, Jr.,
Rear Adm. U.S. Navy (Ret.)

Ambassador Edward Peck
(former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq)

Jack Shanahan,
Vice Adm. U.S. Navy (Ret.)

While I don’t have their transcripts in front of me, I’m guessing that just a few of those folks got through grade school without struggling. Heck, one or two of them might even understand foreign policy.