Mary Kay and Vili, May 20, 2005

[LavenderBlue]

@mhendo

What do you mean they “have a basis in fact”? What they have is a legal and a societal basis; i’m not quite sure how that compares to having a “basis in fact,” and i don’t quite understand what you’re saying here.True enough, as the law is now written, but it continues to beg the question of whether—legal questions aside—it is reasonable to believe that some thirteen year olds might be capable of consenting.

I meant what I stated: the law often treats children differently because they are different. They aren’t adults in miniature.

Which particular thirteen year olds are we talking about here? Because I’ve worked with them and lived next door them and have yet to meet one that was apparently ready for sex, let alone ready for a relationship with a teacher.

The law wisely protects all thirteen year olds.

I’m not saying that they are; only that your continued appeal to mere legalism doesn’t actually address the issue very well.I’m not in favor of anything in particular.

Mere legalism? Huh? Are you are you or aren’t you in favor of thirteen year olds having sex? Because, like most people, I certainly am not.

And whether or not it has a chance of becoming law is immaterial to the questions that i’m raising.Bully for you. Given that they are both consenting adults, i find myself caring about it not at all.

I care that people are finding excuses for her behavior.

Now you’re just being silly. The point i was making is that the arbitrary age cutoffs that we set in our legal system fail to take account of different levels of emotional development among different individuals.

I am not a lawyer but how else would one do it? Are we supposed to have one law for certain individuals and one for others even when they are the same age? Society doesn’t work like that.

How do you judge whether someone is “ready for sex” anyway? Do you take their temperature? Ask them if they feel ready to have sex? Is there some magic psychological or physical change that occurs on the person’s sixteenth (or seventeenth, or eighteenth) birthday?

I don’t know how you make that decision. But in the meantime it seems perfectly logical to me that the law decides against having sex with all thirteen year olds.

All age laws are always somewhat arbitrary. I have a friend who didn’t get to vote one year because her eighteen birthday fell the day after election day. It seems to me that’s the best we can do with what we have.

Hell, the very fact that different states within the US set different ages of consent suggest that there is no hard and fast rule even within this country.

Are there any that set it at thirteen? Are there any that wouldn’t imprison Ms. Le Tourneau?

In case you hadn’t noticed, “having sex” and “child bearing” are not the same thing. Yes it was. Nothing in your citation demonstrates that a 13 year old is physically incapable of having sex.

But my point was that there’s more physically to having sex then just the penis and the vagina.

Also, your link says that “The brain’s maturation process continues through adolescence and is not complete until the early 20’s.” Do you advocate raising the age of consent to 23, to take account of your own concern about thisz issue? Would you call for neuroimaging tests to be performed on all Americans so we can determine whether or not their brain is dceveloped enough for you to allow them to have sex?

I call for keeping laws that punish people who have sex with thirteen year olds. Kids should be protected from people like Le Tourneau. Are you against such laws?

[pessimisticgrace]

<<I call for keeping laws that punish people who have sex with thirteen year olds.>>

What about thirteen year olds who have sex with other thirteen year olds? Who do we punish then? Because like it or not, it happens.

And, again, I personally believe she committed a crime and deserved to go to jail, but I hate this “this person is capable, this person isn’t” crap. It’s completely arbitrary. Since when was sex ever about “brain development?” How many people actually CONSIDER how “developed” their brains are when they choose to have sex? You’re creating a standard that a good portion of America doesn’t stand up to. Either apply it to everyone, or don’t apply it at all. Because it’s pretty stupid to set a cutoff age with no exceptions, both because you end up punishing people who’re more mature than people 10 years older (and I’m not saying Vili was) and you end up letting idiots screw to their hearts content.

If you’re going to talk about brain development, cover the entire issue. Because any reputable neuroscientist will tell you that development varies, as does maturity, and age isn’t the only deciding factor. Vili actually strikes me as a pretty spacey kid, so I’m not sure I’d throw him in that category, but labelling maturity on age and nothing else is incredibly naive.

[mhendo]

@lavenderlemon

Mere legalism? Huh? Are you are you or aren’t you in favor of thirteen year olds having sex? Because, like most people, I certainly am not.

Nice oversimplification, and not relevant to the point i was asking about. I’ve never once suggested that i was in favor of thirteen year olds having sex. What i have been discussing is the possibility that we need a way to make more nuanced judgments in these cases than the oversimplified ones that you appear so dedicated to.

@lavenderlemon

I care that people are finding excuses for her behavior.

Actually, i don’t think anyone in this thread has actually excused her behavior. I know i haven’t. What some people have suggested is that she has done her time, and that he is now an adult, and so they should be able to do whatever they want. And people have also suggested that it’s simplistic and silly to lump all sex offenders into a single category without taking account of the differences in the nature of certain offenses. But you seem to have a problem making any distinctions whatsoever.

@lavenderlemon

I am not a lawyer but how else would one do it? Are we supposed to have one law for certain individuals and one for others even when they are the same age? Society doesn’t work like that.

Never said it did. I’m quite aware that we need to have age of consent laws, and that those law will—for better or worse—set a particular age as the threashold. But i have also been proposing that, when such laws are broken, we need to take account of the nature of the offense, the person committing, it, and the person upon whom it was committed. And if this involves asking whether the victim was indeed capable of giving any sort of informed consent, then that’s what we should do.

@lavenderlemon

I don’t know how you make that decision. But in the meantime it seems perfectly logical to me that the law decides against having sex with all thirteen year olds.

Never said otherwise. I’m not arguing against the law. I’m arguing against people whose apparent wilfull obtuseness on the issue prevents them from even considering the possibility that e should look at the particular circumstances of each case rather than make blanket judgments.

@lavenderlemon

All age laws are always somewhat arbitrary. I have a friend who didn’t get to vote one year because her eighteen birthday fell the day after election day. It seems to me that’s the best we can do with what we have.

Sure. As i said in my first post to this thread, and as i’ve been saying all along.

@lavenderlemon

Are there any that set it at thirteen? Are there any that wouldn’t imprison Ms. Le Tourneau?

Irrelevant. I’m simply arguing that the age we set is necessarily somewhat arbitrary, and that, given this fact, we should be prepared to consider each case to determine whether there is, in fact, some mitigation of the circumstances.

@lavenderlemon

But my point was that there’s more physically to having sex then just the penis and the vagina.

Well, in my experience, both usually have bodies attached.

What, physically, made Vili physically (rather than psychologically or emotionally) unready for sex?

@lavenderlemon

I call for keeping laws that punish people who have sex with thirteen year olds. Kids should be protected from people like Le Tourneau. Are you against such laws?

She’s been punished. Or did you miss her trial, incarceration, and subsequent release? I agree that she deserved punishment, and i think her sentence was quite appropriate to the circumstances.

And would you please stop suggesting that i’m somehow against consent laws? It’s rather tiresome. I’m simply calling for greater thought and consideration in how those laws are enforced. It would also be nice if we could live without so much post facto indignation in the face of the fact that the guy is now an adult and has chosen to be with her. I know it must bum you out that he’s made this choice, and that the two of them are now profiting from their notoriety, but if you want to change the sort of media whoring that is going on here, you’ll need to look at a lot more than just age of consent laws.