Mary Sue characters

Authoral intent is a poor indicator of whether a character is a Mary Sue. Few writers set out to deliberately write their own Mary Sues – unless as a send-up or parordy.

The main character is treated as an equal by the much-more-experienced Enterprise crew, is showered with rewards far beyond her accomplishments, always has the right skill at hand, or immediately wins the friendship and loyalty of the one person who has the skill she needs, the mistakes she makes turn out not to be mistakes, her ex-boyfriend is central to the Federation-spanning plotline, her super-hot Vulcan boyfriend can’t help but like her in spite of not wanting to get involved with her, AND all the main characters of the Star Trek series are shuffled offstage so that she can solve everything, and they only reappear when everything is over to get on with the showering of compliments and rewards.

She is not a Mary Sue because the author is female. She’s a Mary Sue because she has all the attributes of a Mary Sue.

Ah, then it’s the writer rather than the character - I recognise the description, but couldn’t finish the modern detective story (not knowing it was the same author). Nothing against Ms King, we obviously just don’t gel as writer / reader. Funny thing about lesbian detectives - I adored the TV series Wire in the Blood, and couldn’t read the books, not even the author’s other series featuring a crime solving lesbian journalist …

Since we’ve got such differing tastes, it could be well worth your while to check her out. Val_McDermid I feel guilty for not liking her stuff since I liked the screen adaptation so much. May my karma be restored by matching her to an appreciative audience.

I haven’t tried the Kate Brannigan series.

Much as it pains me to admit it, because he’s otherwise a talented writer, every second Carl Hiaasen protagonist is a Mary Sue: a middle-aged man, still boyishly handsome and in terrific shape, outwardly world-weary and possessed of an acid wit and a rugged cynicism, yet deep down a tree-hugging idealist who’s always ready to fight the good fight, loves classic rock, has a string of broken relationships due to his adorable quirkiness, and invariably ends up with a gorgeous woman 20 years his junior. Hell, in Basket Case he’s even an investigative journalist. Stop it, Carl.

Being a reader and writer of fanfiction myself, I’m undecided when it comes to the usefulness of the Mary Sue concept, especially when it’s applied to original fiction. First of all, it’s too inexact to be of much use, since it can mean, a) a self-insert character in original fiction, b) a self-insert character in fanfiction, c) any original character in fanfiction, d) any character the reviewer dislikes, or e) a character that is the author’s pet and spoilt and entitled brainchild, and the black hole around which the narrative revolves, not by virtue of their own abilities as much as by the author’s word. I tend to go for the last definition, though it makes it a lot more difficult to issue general statements about what a Mary Sue character is or is not. But you recognise them when you see them.

Any online Mary-Sue tests I’ve seen seem to address generalised symptoms rather than the original, individual character, but removing the symptoms doesn’t address the problem. So you’ve changed Arwen’s baby sister’s eyes from colour-changing to a dull dishwater grey, removed her sparkly unicorn pet and made her plain-looking for an Elf, but she still insinuates herself as the tenth member of the Fellowship, emoes about the star-crossed love that she and Legolas Bloomleaf bear each other, steals all the scenes and saves the free world just by existing. She still is a Mary Sue.

Conversely, some characters who bear all the signs of being self-inserts still seem to be bearable. Harriet Vane, for instance. And there’s the dilemma, is she a bearable character because she isn’t a Mary Sue, or is she a Mary Sue and DL Sayers an incredibly talented author?

It probably follows from my definition that I hesitate to use the term Mary Sue, though I did it and meant it after a May weekend of skimming through three PDF’s of the Twilight saga. Though the author wanted to give the impression that Bella was just a plain, shy, bookish and clumsy teenage girl, she manages to have her entire school awestruck by her presence, an entire vampire clan and a werewolf tribe at her beck and call (apart from some token jealous bitches) – for no very good reason at all except that the author wants it to be. And it went on like that for four books, with Stephenie Meyer pulling strings, lowering mountains and acting as Bella’s curling parent. This is highlit by Bella’s complete passiveness; she stands there and the entire story happens around her, without her having to lift a finger.

“We are the Vampire Police and now we will kill you for exposing our secrets to the world! Except no, we won’t, good-bye and safe journey home!”

“Holy crow, Mom will totally kill me for getting married straight out of highschool – except that she doesn’t because she adores my boyfriend and thinks I’m so mature.”

“Woe is me, if I become a vampire I’ll never be able to meet my family again – except now Dad is sitting in the living room in Casa Cullen, watches football with Emmett and doesn’t suspect a thing.”

Count me as one who got extremely disappointed that Bella’s clumsiness (classic Mary Sue flaw, that; a flaw that doesn’t affect the story and only makes the character look cute) wasn’t the sign of a slowly advancing and inoperable brain tumour. She could have died a noble Mary Sue death and united grieving humans, werewolves and vampires at her grave.

Right. I think the idea of Mary Sue’s is only really easy to spot when the character is introduced to an already-existing “cast” and you get to see how the characters react to him or her. That’s why the Dreadnought and Uhura’s Song characters are so obvious. They’re one-offs (well, two-offs in the case of Carey), they are beloved by existing characters (the doctor in Uhura’s Song had all three main TOS men falling for her!), and they fulfill all sorts of wishful thinking. (Gosh, if only I could be there, I would be like that!)

Mary Sues like that distort the existing world of the series, so they have to be shuffled off quickly.

I don’t think I could identify one if we were only talking about stand alone novels or series.

Patricia Cornwell has seemed to split her Mary Sue characters into two: Both Scarpetta and her niece Lucy are like she wishes she really was like (hence her pretending to have solved the Jack the Ripper murders, investigating Princess Diana’s death, etc.)

Yeah, of course I meant Rand :smack:

And very true about Bran Stark.

Dear Og, I’d almost wiped her from my memory!

This is the one I came in to mention. I started reading these when I was both young and idealistic enough to think that Mary Sues/Gary Stus and self-inserts only happened in the world of crappy online fanfics, not in actual published books. After going on a tear through most of the series, it hit me like a freight train that all these books were essentially Clive Cussler’s daydreams. That realization all the enjoyment out of reading the books, as I felt kinda like I was intruding or reading someone’s diary, and just a little dirty.

Batman scores 61 - Uber-Sue. Even without being able to answer any of the questions that relate to the author…

I feel vindicated.

I was coming in to say “Ninety five percent of Heinlein’s protagonists.”

6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

That is not permitted. The Stormtroopers…er, Starfleet Security will be along in a second. Please remain where you are.

While Marissa is a classic Mary Sue (except that the bitch won’t die), Stephen Ratliff’s a pretty nice guy. He gave me permission to use Marissa as a Wicked Witch of the West equivalent in an Oz-based fanfic I did once. (Wesley Crusher was the Wicked Witch of the East…)

I gotta say–Conan the Barbarian is an uber-Mary-Sue.

And Dominique and whoever the main female character was in WE THE LIVING.

I nominate Dr. aBRAhaM Van Helsing.

Quibble: Murdock isn’t (IMO) an avatar of triumph over disability–even in his earliest appearances, his super senses and radar sense made him better than human–I mean, the guy can read by feeling the difference in texture between the ink and the page, sense colors by how much heat they radiate(? don’t ask me, I just report it), even tell how many salt crystals are on a pretzel by taste and touch–this isn’t a disability. :wink: Perhaps Batgirl/Oracle would be a better example?
And for me, the key components of a “Mary-Sue” are “Everyone loves them”, “They always save the day” and “The author really, REALLY wants you to agree that they’re cool.” and their powers/abilities grow as fast as the plot requires. They’re kind of a story’s black hole as, once they’re introduced, everything revolves around them. Remember Mary-Sue’s aren’t necessarily author avatars.

Nightcrawler (pre-Byrne) was one. First he could teleport. Then he turned invisible in shadows. Then just invisible. Then he talked to leprechauns–there was a joke at Marvel at the time about how long it would take for Nightcrawler to become Sorcerer Supreme. Byrne wasn’t as hooked on Nightcrawler as Claremont, so that one stopped.

Claremont did this a lot–he’d introduce a character, fall in love with them, bulk them up with extra powers/abilities/gimmicks and then lose interest. Kitty Pryde is another example. First she could just phase. Then she could pick locks while phased. That morphed into “fries electronics while phased”. She also became a teen genius, a ballet dancer, a world-class computer hacker (she hacked into the CIA/FBI/NSA/whichever organization builds sentinels). Then she was a ninja.

I’ll give you teen genius and hacker extraordinaire, but the rest of those all seem to flow from one to the other.

If someone can phase through solid matter, why wouldn’t they be able to pick locks with it? Or why wouldn’t it fry electronics?

When I was a little kid, before I had ever even heard of the X-Men, I wrote a short story about a guy who could walk through walls. If he moved fast enough through something electrical, it would explode.

As for being a ninja, if you can phase through walls and the floor and anything else, you’re a ninja whether you dress in all black or not.

No–I don’t mean “ninja=sneaky”, I mean a real “comic-book ninja”–sword skills, kick-ass karate* skills (she could out-fight Wolverine), magic death touch, resurrecting the dead, etc.

And the lock-pick->fry electronics stuff was just an example of her powers being ramped way up. Picking locks was the original power, “fries electronics” is what what it became as soon as Claremont realized it was “cooler”.

*Karate or whatever the magic martial art that ninjas have. Kung Fu?

You know, you don’t even have to dig that deep. Bram Stoker’s given name was actually Abraham.

OK, yeah, that’s probably going overboard.

Ninjitsu.

Willow Rosenberg.

Oh good God.

So she’s a gorgeous thin, creamy skinned redhead who is completely and utterly unaware of her own beauty. She’s a genius computer hacker who picks up every other unusual and needed skill in the series. She’s an occult expert by the end of the series. Witch so powerful she nearly destroys the world and after taking a serious hit to her magic so as to not go all kookoo world destroying again is still powerful enough to forever alter the entire concept of a Slayer. She murders a man for vengeance and is never brought to justice for it (while another character who accidentally killed someone went to prison). She sets up her own little CSI lab at one point to test hamburgers for traces of human blood. Her exboyfriend, the cool older man and lead guitarist in a band, fell in love with her at first sight, then had to leave town forever when he couldn’t have her. Her girlfriend whom she magically manipulated and essentially gave her mystical roofies to make her forget their fights took her back anyway, and then died tragically in her arms. Everyone loves her and wants her.

Men, women, rats.