Mass Arrests, Civil Forfeitures (Biker War)

[tomndebb]

@Richard_Parker

That said, if the police based their probable cause on something like the first scenario I provided above (“in order to join the Bandidos, I have to agree, explicitly or implicitly, to participate in a fight if we meet some Cossacks”), then they would indeed have probable cause to arrest members who made that agreement even if they were nowhere near the shoot-out, assuming such members did not effectively withdraw from the conspiracy (an absence would not be enough in itself to prove that).

Two things to note regarding the whole “gang membership = member of a conspiracy” theme that has been mentioned on multiple occasions in this thread:

Apparently, the overall meeting was different than a discussion of turfs. Several biker groups (not gangs) were present and had members swept up in the police net. Among them, members of the Vise Grip Club (a group devoted to restoring and riding vintage bikes) and members of the Boozefighters Motorcycle Club (a group organized for charity rides) had come, reportedly to discuss efforts to shape motorcycle legislation. The members of those groups probably did know what sort of group they were joining–but restoring vintage bikes and raising money for charity are rarely criminal activities. (Interestingly, every single big Harley rider i know is an accountant. )

On to the sillier (I hope) stuff. The CTists are already claiming that the worst that the gang bikers did was a couple of guys who pulled knives in the parking lot and that all the shooting was done by cops who had surrounded the building in the expectation (hopes?) that there would be an excuse to attack the gangs.

[Richard_Parker]

@tomndebb

Apparently, the overall meeting was different than a discussion of turfs. Several biker groups (not gangs) were present and had members swept up in the police net. Among them, members of the Vise Grip Club (a group devoted to restoring and riding vintage bikes) and members of the Boozefighters Motorcycle Club (a group organized for charity rides) had come, reportedly to discuss efforts to shape motorcycle legislation. The members of those groups probably did know what sort of group they were joining–but restoring vintage bikes and raising money for charity are rarely criminal activities. (Interestingly, every single big Harley rider i know is an accountant. )

Yeah, I managed to miss the article describing the other arrests despite F-P’s pointing it out to me twice. I completely agree that the arrest of the members of the Vise Grip Club seems, based on what we know now, entirely preposterous. Do we know if they were immediately released or if they were among those held on high bail?

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@tomndebb

On to the sillier (I hope) stuff. The CTists are already claiming that the worst that the gang bikers did was a couple of guys who pulled knives in the parking lot and that all the shooting was done by cops who had surrounded the building in the expectation (hopes?) that there would be an excuse to attack the gangs.

There may be a middle ground between that version and the version currently being publicized by the police. There’s apparently video of the inside of the restaurant which does not support the police version:

The video suggests that Sunday’s deadly gunfight unfolded almost entirely outside the Twin Peaks restaurant, except for one round fired by a biker on the patio who then ran inside.

Before the shooting, the inside of the restaurant appears to be mostly empty. Bikers and other patrons can be seen walking to the windows facing the parking lot where police say the dispute began.

Another camera angle, on the far side of the restaurant from the gunfire, shows patrons who aren’t wearing biker gear crawling behind tables toward the kitchen. At least three bikers appear to be gesturing to have the patrons crawl to safety.

The AP was exclusively shown the video by representatives of the Twin Peaks franchise, who have said the fighting occurred outside the restaurant, not inside as police have said. The franchise has not released the video publicly, citing the ongoing police investigation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/motorcycle-gang-shootout-started-with-parking-dispute/2015/05/19/e266ac0c-fe91-11e4-8c77-bf274685e1df_story.html

[HookerChemical]

@Sinaptics

I was thinking more of intentional environmental pollution such as (allegedly) fracking, or as is done in 3rd world countries.

Erin Brockovich and the well known lawsuit against PG&E is an example. You have a company knowingly polluting the environment and covering it up which led directly to cancer and death for the local population. As far as I know, not one person went to jail or had personal property taken.

The PG&E pollution at Hinkley is a poor example of when polluters should be held accountable. There’s enough ambiguity about the case and who knew what when that it’s not a good poster child for polluters as criminals. PG&E’s disposal of the chromium was legal at the time, though we now know how stupid the practice was. At the time, it may have been suspected as toxic, but it wasn’t proven and groundwater contamination wasn’t much of an environmental concern. (There are a lot of legacy cleanup projects that were legal at the time but which have resulted in horrible environmental and health impacts. Our grandparents lacked foresight or simply didn’t care, but crying for incarceration of a PG&E employee from 1960 isn’t the poster child case.)

If you want my nomination for environmental negligence, it goes to the Elk River chemical spill by Freedom Industries. It was (probably) a less toxic pollutant, but the mind boggling negligence of not inspecting the chemical tanks for decades, the lack of secondary containment, and the slow response displays a contempt for health and the water supply that infuriates me. The runner(s) up are the various coal ash spills. Enough of these have happened that we really should see these coming before they become an issue.

[XT]

@Czarcasm

I was just about to link to the international gang that stole hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars, without having one gang member sit in jail or have personal property taken away from them.

Well, the BANKS are going to be paying some pretty hefty fines (looks like $5.6 Billion according to the headline of your link)…and, from what I understand, this was some middle managers who did this, not the head honchos of the various banks. So, I’ll just say that it’s not one gang member in jail YET. This story is just starting out, and I have a feeling that some folks will be going down. Even if you think that the US is the most wretched hive of scum and villainy, several of those banks are in other countries (one is the Scottish nations bank, IIRC). Guess we shall see.

[katpohl]

About 170 members of rival motorcycle gangs were charged with engaging in organized crime Monday, a day after a shootout at a Texas restaurant that killed nine people and wounded 18.
McLennan County Justice of the Peace W.H. Peterson set bond at $1 million for each suspect. He defended the high amount, citing the violence that quickly unfolded in a shopping market busy with a lunchtime crowd.

Police acknowledged firing on armed bikers, but it was unclear how many of the dead were shot by gang members and how many were shot by officers.
a national chain that features waitresses in revealing uniforms

http://www.juno-news.com/news/read/category/AP%20Online%20National%20News/article/the_associated_press-waco_on_guard_after_biker_gang_shootout_leaves_9_d-ap
What I’m not understandng is what if anything does what the wait staff wear have to do with any this. In all thre articles /updates it’s been mentioned that the waitresses wear revealing uniforms As if that is going to surprise anyone , ’ like , oh no , bikers hang out in a place that has waitresses wearing revealing uniforms ’ the nerve ofthem bikers ,

[Haberdash]

The issue is the particular outlet of the chain and their tolerance for being a meeting place for biker gangs to engage in criminal conspiracies/brawl with each other. The national chain immediately cut their franchise – they don’t appear to have any doubts about the local branch going way off the reservation and in some sense enabling what happened.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

Either that or they don’t need the bad PR and need to dissasociate themselves from the police criticism ASAP.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

Some legal analysis making some of the same points as this OP: Just How Badly Are Authorities Screwing Up The Arrest Of 170 Bikers In Texas?

Practical issues with this scale of mass prosecution: Lawyers, guns and money: The logistics of prosecuting 170 people in Waco

Analysis of civil forfeiture prospects: Vehicle forfeiture efforts could be lucrative, but difficult in Twin Peaks shooting

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

4 months later …

From the AP:

Four months later, authorities have released little information about what sparked the fight or how the gunfire played out, and no one has been charged with any of the deaths.

Following the shooting, 177 people were arrested and held for days or weeks on $1 million bonds on charges of engaging in organized criminal activity. But no one has been indicted, and it remains unclear whose bullets struck the dead and wounded.

It’s also unclear when cases will be presented to a grand jury. Bikers were taken to the Waco convention center for processing after the shootout and were told on the way that they were going to be interviewed as witnesses, according to a 430-page Texas Department of Public Safety report that corroborates what arrested bikers have told AP.

But prosecutors decided late that night to arrest the majority of those detained.

District Attorney Abel Reyna and his staff told authorities at the convention center that anyone wearing a patch, clothing or insignia that indicated support for the Bandidos or Cossacks should be charged with engaging in organized crime, according to the report.

[Tom_Tildrum]

The delay certainly gives the conspiracy theorists plenty to work with.

[Tom_Tildrum]

The AP (based on leaked documents) is reporting that bikers were hit by police bullets, although apparently it is still not known whether those shots were responsible for any of the fatalities.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

And now, 4 years after the police arrested every single biker on the scene and demanded $1M bail, Prosecutors drop all charges in deadly shootout

No one will be convicted or otherwise held accountable for the 2015 shootout between rival biker gangs in Waco restaurant parking lot that left nine people dead and at least 20 injured, prosecutors in Central Texas said Tuesday.

In a statement announcing all charges will be dropped in the deadliest biker shooting in U.S. history, McLennan County District Attorney Barry Johnson said any further effort to prosecute the case would be a “waste of time, effort and resources.”

Law enforcement officials took the extraordinary step of arresting 177 bikers after the shooting, then charged 155 of them with engaging in organized criminal activity. Many were held on a $1 million bond.

Former District Attorney Abel Reyna ultimately dropped charges against all but 24 and re-indicted them on riot charges. Those were the cases that came to an end Tuesday.

Only one case was prosecuted in court and that ended in a mistrial.

More than 100 bikers have filed civil rights lawsuits alleging McLennan County, the city and others violated the plaintiffs’ civil rights by arresting them without probable cause after the shooting.

“It’s a travesty that so many people were rounded up and then investigated, instead of vice versa,” Mark Snodgrass, president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association, said Tuesday. “A lot of these people’s lives were put on hold for four years.”

[Czarcasm]

Thank you for the update.

[HurricaneDitka]

I don’t think the AP got the parties involved in the shootout correct.

[UltraVires]

How can any court in the United States say that $1M bail is not excessive in violation of the 8th Amendment? I mean, we all have that in our wallet or our checking account, right?

This is one of the most violated amendments in history and the courts do nothing except to keep requiring excessive bail.

[Nava]

I expect it’s one of those things where the reference is internal. What was the bail set the last time a similar thing happened, 1M? OK, I can set it to 1.1M and it’s reasonable.

When the reference is external (that is, when you look at what would be considered a reasonable amount based on things such as the economic status of the people involved) then it’s completely unreasonable.

[asahi]

Colossal prosecutorial incompetence. Justice denied.

[Saint_Cad]

@BobLibDem

I’m not sure what the problem is. The bikers will get their day in court and if the government can’t prove their case they ride away.

No. They will not “ride away” as their bikes will have been sold under CAF.

[silenus]

Then they will walk away richer because with this Supreme Court, CAF like that won’t likely fly. That county is going to be buried under lawsuits for a generation.