Thanks! Yes, I am greatly relieved that rural transportation will now become as satisfactory as its urban counterpart.
How long will it take, d’ya think?
(Sorry, Satan, but must I leave a gauntlet on the floor?..)
Take a valium. Take a deep breath. Count to 10.
You made the statement that you love your job enough that you would inconvenience your friends if you couldn’t get someone else to subsidize your desire to work there. You described yourself as one of the “less fortunate”. If either of these were said tongue-in-cheek, smileys would have helped.
So my assessment was correct. Instead of attacking me, perhaps you should be glad that there are people out here that pay enough taxes to subsidize your endeavors.
SouthernStyle:
Did it ever occur to you that she is also paying the taxes that subsidize her ride? Hell, if she sticks strictly to bus routes, then she also pays taxes that subsidize roadways that she may never see. Ditto for those “less fortunate” in your locale. Sheesh!
Waste
Flick Lives!
Wasteful,
That’s twice in this thread that a statement has referred to the rider’s taxes also going to subsidize the mass transit system.
I know nothing of the demographics in her area. They’re not been stated and aren’t really germane to the OP. But I know of no mass transit systems that are revenue positive for the owning government. They might exist, but I don’t know of one. At best, her paid fare pays for her ride.
She’s a college student. Again, tuitions seldom pay for the actual cost of education. Taxpayer dollars and private grants subsidize the bulk of the costs of building and running a university.
So at best she’s paying her own way. Statistically, it’s a good bet that OTHER taxpayers are supporing her.
Drain Bead, would you care to elaborate?
SouthernStyle:
What? You thought that those “less fortunate” are dissuaded from paying taxes? That they don’t have jobs? Since I cannot speak for DrainBead, allow me to speak for myself. Even though the bus system in KC is so very much less than ideal, I used it for four years. It took me to my job (the wages that I earned were taxed), to the grocery store (where I paid taxes on foodstuffs), and just generally wherever I wanted to go. So, I paid the same damned taxes that the schmuck in the BMW who cut off my bus almost every morning for about 8 months did. So, I imagine, did almost everyone else who I rode with.
Is there some tax exemption for users of mass transit in Tallahassee?
The only thing I get from the above is that you want to eliminate the buses because they lose money. Is that what you’re saying?
She also has a job. One which you have commented on. Therefore, she is paying taxes. Tuition has nothing to do with the topic, as far as I can tell. I’ll leave the rest for DrainBead to comment on.
Waste
Flick Lives!
SouthernStyle
Sorry, man, ever hear of Tri-Rail? That’s the rail-based mass transit system in use in the Miami-Dade metroplex. Obviously, subways can’t work in Florida and I agree that TalTran (the service in question) has its problems, but I don’t think that killing the service is the answer. The few times I’ve paid attention the ridership rate seems extremely low (this is anecdotal and I have no cite!). I suspect the problem resides in VERY poorly designed routes. I would rather that they focused on routes to areas with a heavy user population and left the rest of us out of it altogether.
BTW, I also hate the annoying radio ads.
grem
Durn simul-post.
GLWasteful
There are taxes and there are taxes. She (Drain Bead) is paying no sales tax on gasoline (heavily road-oriented, at least down here), no license and registration fees (also heavily road-oriented), no special taxes on automobile service and no sales tax on the auto. While I agree with few of SouthernStyle’s ideas on this subject I do have to agree with him that auto owner/users do pay higher transportation related taxes than non-auto owner/users do.
Libertarian
Hmmm, I seem to remember (and if I’m incorrect on this, please accept my apology in advance) that you were part of the “if there’s enough of a need, the people who use it will pay for it” group on the libertarian gov’t thread a while back. Why should the gov’t subsidize mass transit, if it isn’t profitable there must not be a need, right? 
grem
No. If you go back and read my original post, I said that it would “cost me a job I love.” That means that I would be forced to get a job within walking distance. However, since there are no grocery stores within walking distance, I would be dependant upon friends to drive me to and from the grocery store.
Well, considering you completely understood the first one, and the second one was conveniently placed in nice sarcastic quotes (I am not about to use smilies in Great Debates), the problem lies on your receiver, not on my transmitter.
Um, I work. My taxes go toward the bus system as much as yours or anyone else’s, PLUS I pay to ride it. And I would continue paying as much as I could until it was no longer cost-effective for me to do so.
I’m not sure what this has to do with anything, unless you want to argue that you don’t want to pay for the upkeep of state-sponsored schools. I doubt you want to go there, though. Would my arguments be better for you if I raised them next year, when I’m going to a private school?
I think everyone else has dealt with the other issues well enough so that I don’t need to add anything else.
For the third time, now, though…do you have any better alternative to offer, SouthernStyle? Or are you just ranting?
completely MISunderstood the first one. Remind me not to post when I’m in a hurry…
SouthernStyle: *I know of no mass transit systems that are revenue positive for the owning government. *
But neither are private vehicle transit systems. Drain Bead’s bus use doesn’t pay its own way via her user fees, but neither does your car use. A report from the Victoria Policy Transport Institute notes that
And a study of subsidies to public and private transit in Madison, Wisconsin pointed out:
So if you want to lecture somebody on the irresponsibility of relying on tax revenues to help subsidize individual transportation costs, you’d better start out with the guy in the mirror.
Let’s see if I can, without being as insulting as the OP has been, sum up his arguments…
"My taxes pay for this thing and I don’t use it.": Well, you don’t get to pick and choose where your taxes go. And just because you might not have any kids, it’s still a good idea that you are helping fund the public schools, don’t you think?
In addition, it is quite possible that your taxes would go up if those who depend on this public transportation to get to their jobs cannot work anymore and suddenly THEY are not paying taxes and are actually going from contributing to taxes and instead would be taking taxes in the form of aid.
Also, everyone is taxed on the roads, which a bus rider is not as able to use as someone with a car. Would it make a lot of sense to complain about road maintenance on roads you don’t use?
"They are a pollutant.": Please do show me how this is so in comparison to cars? Every study I have seen is that public transportation is way better than automobiles. Even if a huge bus only had 10 people on it, it is still better for the environment than those 10 cars driving.
"They get in the way.": So would the cars that are being replaced. Just look at the length of a bus compared to a car. Seems like it’s no different than three cars? So even three people on a bus is better for this.
"Only losers take the bus.": Okay, that IS inflamatory, but I don’t think this is not something you said. Many college students and elderly folks take public transportation in your town, and I would sumbit that one is not a “loser” just because they are young or old. They are also paying taxes too. And what of the handicapped?
"It is not necessary in my podunk town.": As has been established, it seems to be necessary there. It’s certainly useful, there is no debate about that. I will e-mail the person at tha thread provided with this link as a reference and see what I get back from them.
And 200,000 people is NOT Po-Dunk at all. Tallahassee is market #112 according to my DMA research, which is slightly bigger than Montgomery (#114) and I think we all know about an incident with a bus there a few decades ago.
"It loses money.": As do tons of programs the government does. I was no aware the government was in the profit-making department. You want to make your own private public transportation (New York had separate bus lines for ages run by private folks, IIRC, one that my grandmother used to take - The Jamaica Bus Lines in Queens) feel free! You show them the right way to do it, and I’m sure they’ll let you run their current system as well, and you can make a few bucks!
"I don’t like them.": That isn’t good enough.
"They’re not doing a good job in __________": This is, of course, a different issue aside from saying it “shouldn’t exist,” which you have not shown to be the case at all, by the way (see above).
If you think they can do a better job with the particulars - hours of operation, routes, friendliness of drivers, whatever else you could think of - feel free to mention it to them. I believe this started with a comment card you got? I think that is your cue, isn’t it? And thanks to research from some other Doper, you have an e-mail address as well to add that interactive element we all love so much to your suggestions.
Am I missing anything here, SouthernStyle?
Personally, I would think you’re just mad at the influx of “undesirables” into your little Southern hamlet - a few Yankees, maybe, a few people who ain’t like the rest of you? - that you are lashing out at anything which might attract more people there, such as a good, reliable mass transit system.
Of course, I would only think that if you insisted to think it “shouldn’t exist” without some kind of back-up in your favor, and since every argument you have given - as I helpfully provided in my outline above - seems to either be misguided, short-sighted or a flat-out erroneous assumption which hurts you more than helps if your concerns are real.
I said I “would” think ill of your motives above because I am sure, now that you have been shown the light by the Doper community on these important issues to you, that you can see that you were misguided about the viability of public transportation in your area, and will commence to bow to the hard evidence collected and admit it’s worth.
And of course at that point, you will do your best as a citizen to lobby for changes in this viable system to make it even BETTER for you and for everyone!
Unless you still think it “should never have existed,” and I wonder what OTHER reasons I might have missed?
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, one week, 16 hours, 54 minutes and 34 seconds.
5188 cigarettes not smoked, saving $648.52.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 20 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub]
I’m in a small city/large town (pop. 100K or so), and I’ve never had to use the public *transpotane here (busses only).
However, having been in a number of large cities while on vacation or business, when I wasn’t renting a car, I was quite glad to have access to public transpotane.
Maybe they could be run a little more efficiently. Dunno. But personally, I’m all for it. I haven’t needed it so far, but I’m glad it’s there if I ever do.
*This was the way I saw “transportation” spelled on a job application in which the applicant said they “had their own transpotane.”
grem0517:
Well, 1) Gasoline taxes maybe ought to be borne a bit more by those who use public transportation. I could think of worse things. 2) Why on earth should someone pay for license and registration fees if they don’t own a car? Or, for that matter, any fees or taxes that specifically apply to the car in question? The one that they don’t own? People who own cars (or trucks, or motorcycles) should pay more in transport taxes than those who use public transportation, because they have chosen to own a vehicle. They certainly don’t (in certain instances) have to own a car, so if they choose to do so, they pay higher transportation related taxes.
Waste
Flick Lives!
**
Busses use gas too, and I assume that the fare they are paying - fares that car drivers are not - offsets this quite well. When talking of subways, that is not even an issue.
**
Well, in many places you pretty much need some form of identification, and a drivers licence is not much more than a state issued ID card. I kept my DL when I was carless in NYC, for example.
I don’t see anyone needing to pay for registration if they don’t drive, however (though there are plenty of people who might have cars but are trying to get them fixed/in running condition and take public transportation until then, and they are still paying for registration even though they are ALSO doubling up and paying for fares.
I am willing to bet that there are more peopel in the latter situation in smaller places like the OP’s municipality than larger places, of course, but I doubt this is insignificant - especially to those who are in that situation, even if it’s only a matter of a few days the car is in the shop.
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, one week, 17 hours, 57 minutes and 42 seconds.
5189 cigarettes not smoked, saving $648.74.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 25 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub]
Whoa, Nellie! What does that mean exactly?
Are they dividing the cost for cars by the number of people who drive cars and the cost for mass transit by the number of people who use mass transit, or are they dividing both by the number of people in the city, or what?
Darnit, I knew I should have quoted the relevant line. Herewith:
My point was that no, you didn’t! That’s all I said. I didn’t say you should have, could have, or would have. Just that you didn’t.
And please don’t ask me why if I was responding to your quote I dragged poor Drain into my response. I did because I was in a hurry and got two posts mixed in my head. Mea Culpa! Forgive me Drain Bead?
grem
I don’t know about Tallahassee or the Research Triangle, but in Cleveland, RTA buses used either diesel fuel or natural gas. A great portion of the RTA budget came from the county sales tax; the rest came from rider fares.
Satan:
Yeah, I know. Just like I know that buses (usually diesel) have better mileage than automobiles. I was throwing that out as a sop. So that I didn’t come off as one of those tree-hugging, birkenstock-wearing hippie types.
And maybe I just mis-read, but I thought that grem0517 was referring to the actual plates on the car when making reference to licenses. If I’m wrong, then all apologies.
Right. And if they want to do it that way, then they need to suck it up and pay for registration as well as the fare/farecard that they’re using in the meantime.
and grem0517:
And if you’re referring to personal property tax, or tire replacement tax, or city sticker then I fail to see why I should pay. After all, I didn’t own a car. I also realize that my post was less than lucid. I blame it on lack of caffeine.
Waste
Flick Lives!
Libertarian replied to me: “Based on 1992 data from the [Madison WI] Comptroller’s office, the total operating and capital cost impact of cars on the city budget and property tax was at least $26 million, or about $136 per capita, compared to $6.3 million for mass transit, or about $33 per capita.” Whoa, Nellie! What does that mean exactly? Are they dividing the cost for cars by the number of people who drive cars and the cost for mass transit by the number of people who use mass transit, or are they dividing both by the number of people in the city, or what?
Well Lib, I don’t have access to any more data about that report than you have. However, back in the days when Big Brother tore me from the bosom of my peaceful honest family and subjected me to that despicable tax-funded statist brainwashing regimen known as “school” ;), they taught me a fun trick called long division. When I divide 26 million by 136 I get about the same number as when I divide 6.3 million by 33, or approximately 190,000, which coincidentally sounds like a fair estimate of the 1992 population of Madison. So I’d cautiously conclude that to get the per-capita cost, they divided both costs by the number of people in the city.
GLWasteful
Sorry about that, we did have a mis-communication.
license = Driver’s License
registration = License plate
grem