Then the numbers are meaningless.
Satan, did someone pull your underwear up into your crack? I posted a comment listing several negatives about our local bus system and stating that I’d like to dismantle it.
Since then I’ve been chastised for having a life and not being able to respond to your instantaneous desire and treated to a healthy dose of your cynicism. (If any of these words longer than one syllable are giving you trouble, try here: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm.)
Without taking all of your snide “points” one by one, let me restate my original claim. In THIS locale, the bus system is costly for the services provided. It’s ridership is typically low – one can often see empty or nearly empty busses on the streets.
A 4 ton vehicle used as the semi-private coach for 2 or 3 riders is wasteful and not cost-effective (there’s that Republican word again.)
Wondering what in the heck your statements have to do with the OP, New York’s need for a subway just isn’t germane to my original discussion nor is a particular bus ride in Montgomery, Alabama two generations back.
To Drain Bead I owe an apology. I misread the opening statement in your first post and then misrepresented it. I do apologize for this. And I’ll suggest that “nice sarcastic quotes” are pretty well indistinguishable from ones used to mark quoted text like the ones already in place in this paragraph.
SouthernStyle: *let me restate my original claim. In THIS locale, the bus system is costly for the services provided. It’s ridership is typically low – one can often see empty or nearly empty busses on the streets. A 4 ton vehicle used as the semi-private coach for 2 or 3 riders is wasteful and not cost-effective *
Well for heaven’s sake, why didn’t you say so in the first place? Your complaints in the OP said nothing about the bus system being underutilized or not appropriately designed for its ridership; in fact, you specifically said “for what it is it’s reasonably efficient and safe.” You simply complained that it was expensive, obstructive to traffic, and polluting. Now after the rest of us wear ourselves out trying to explain why we think those objections might be either invalid or unimportant compared to the need for public transit, you come back saying that your real point is that there isn’t a genuine need for public transit in your city! Thanks a heap!
Starting all over again at the beginning: if you feel that your local bus system is underutilized and ought to be reduced to a more cost-effective size, you should definitely make that point to your local transit authority. Other constituents, however, may disagree with you about how underutilized and ineffective the bus system is, so it would probably help to be prepared with suggestions for better transit alternatives to meet whatever the real needs are.
Well, so much for that. Good luck.
Lib, I swear you take immense joy in posting cryptic messages as a baiting tactic, and sitting back and waiting for someone to ask you to explain yourself. If you have an assertion to make, would you please at least try to post the reasons behind it rather than just the conclusion? Why do you feel that per capita comparisons aren’t valid?
Hey Kim,
We’re still not on the same page.
Obviously, busses will have greater utilization at certain times of day. The going to work (8AM) and quitting time (5PM) slots come immediately to mind. But there are significant times that the busses are horribly under utilized. I don’t recall how late busses run, but the busses are still on the road after 9PM.
[to the board]
After posting my original statements yesterday I went home. I didn’t check the board until I came back to work today – even then I didn’t check until mid-morning as I had things more important than debating bus schedules.
Must to my surprise, and chagrin, I’ve been cast as the second coming of Lucifer himself for suggesting that things don’t work as well I’d like to see them in my home community and that I’d rather the whole damned thing go away than continue “as is”.
I know of only two other dopers from Tallahassee. Grem, who has already posted to this thread, and chrisbar. All three of us are in the IT field. Grem’s responsibilities preclude him from being completely dependent upon the bus. My discussions with Chrisbar suggest that she, too, is not dependent upon the local bus system.
The funny (and sad) thing is that not one doper is negatively impacted by what I’d suggested. Yet they generally chose to come across as experts and jump on me for wanting to make things better on the local level.
I do not have an alternative to the local bus system. My personal opinion is that the general population of Tallahassee Florida would be better served by taking the money currently going into a bus system and spending it in other ways.
[/to the board]
I will ignore your gratuitous comments which have nothing to do with anything except for showing your true colors more vividly.
**
As Kimstu stated, that is NOT your original claim. In fact, I believe this did not even come up until just now. I believe that I went down, line by line, your original claims (that’s plural, as in more than one - please notice the letter “s” at the end of the word and how you actually used the “list” feature of vB coding in your OP).
You are not responding to my summation, SouthernStyle. As such, I have to assume that you simply agree that your points which WERE brought up in the OP were correctly and succinctly rebutted successfully - by others here as well as by myself.
This is the first time you brought up that ridership is low from what I can tell. Saying you live in a small town is not the same as saying that there aren’t enough people there who are using the busses, is it? I don’t think so.
So since we finally got to the heart of the matter, please take Kimstu’s advice in his (or her - Sorry, Kim!) last post - which ironically mirrors what I said in at least two of MY earlier posts, and simply make suggestions as to how it should be operated more efficiently and cost-effective with regard to the passengers it serves.
Anything else you want to bring up that you haven’t before which changes everything?
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, one week, 19 hours, 42 minutes and 56 seconds.
5192 cigarettes not smoked, saving $649.10.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 40 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub]
SouthernStyle: *We’re still not on the same page. Obviously, busses will have greater utilization at certain times of day. The going to work (8AM) and quitting time (5PM) slots come immediately to mind. But there are significant times that the busses are horribly under utilized. I don’t recall how late busses run, but the busses are still on the road after 9PM. *
Okay, then it sounds as though there could be room for elimination of some routes and/or reduction in frequency of service. I’m the world’s biggest mass-transit fan, but I view a transit system’s inertly maintaining chronically underutilized routes very critically: if the city is actively trying to recruit ridership on such routes (to save money on downtown parking, for example), it should offer real incentives to do so, and if it isn’t, then it should make creative changes to the service (frequency reduction, fleet changes, paratransit, whatever) to make it more genuinely useful.
Running lots of empty buses is indeed unnecessarily costly, obstructive, and polluting, and creates more negative PR than positive benefits. I’m presently joining with a local transit advocacy group in recommending that one of the commuter ferries here in RI be removed from service—and it breaks my heart, I’ll tell you, because I never saw a ferry I didn’t love. But the point of public transport is to transport the public, and systems that aren’t doing that need to change.
*[to the board] […]I know of only two other dopers from Tallahassee. Grem, who has already posted to this thread, and chrisbar. All three of us are in the IT field. Grem’s responsibilities preclude him from being completely dependent upon the bus. My discussions with Chrisbar suggest that she, too, is not dependent upon the local bus system.
The funny (and sad) thing is that not one doper is negatively impacted by what I’d suggested. Yet they generally chose to come across as experts and jump on me for wanting to make things better on the local level. *
Oh, now here I have to take issue with you again, I’m afraid. Surely you don’t think that we should automatically assume that just because something doesn’t negatively affect us, it must be an okay thing to do? You seemed to be saying, not that the bus system was unnecessary because it was hardly serving anyone, but that it was unnecessary because it wasn’t serving you, or anyone but the “less fortunate.” Naturally we thought that sounded not like “wanting to make things better on the local level” but like a selfish attempt to avoid expense to yourself in dealing with a community issue, so naturally we jumped on you. My apologies, personally.
*I do not have an alternative to the local bus system. My personal opinion is that the general population of Tallahassee Florida would be better served by taking the money currently going into a bus system and spending it in other ways. *
But wait, I thought you just said that the rush-hour buses are heavily utilized? Now you want to dismantle them anyway? I think your real problem here is that you don’t seem to actually know much hard data about what your city’s transit needs and constraints really are, beyond vague impressions like “nobody I know uses it” and “there sure are a lot of empty-looking buses in the afternoons”. Speaking as someone who’s been involved with these issues for a long time, if you want to effect change you really do have to get the data and provide specific practical suggestions for alternative solutions. Just saying “take all the buses away because there are only three or four people on them” isn’t going to do anything except alienate those three or four people—and there may be only a few of them, but they still outvote you! Nah, you get out of public advocacy what you put into it, and if you don’t put some work into turning this cause of yours into a genuinely effective solution, you won’t see any real change.
**
Which leads you to saying…
**
So first you are arguing that the busses are not needed at all (in your OP, or was that something else too?), and now you state that the times the busses are running are messed up.
What is it, Sparky?
Here’s the best way to decide this. If the PT (that is public transportation as I am tired of typing it) is crowded at any general times and any general lines, it’s probably needed to a degree.
For example, in NYC the Subways and busses run 24-7. In Washington DC, they stop running during the evenings and have special schedules for holidays.
PT is needed in both places, but WHERE, HOW and HOW MUCH are the actual issues. And I hate to get back to that comment card which invoked your ire to begin with, but you do know that this kind if input is probably what they were wanting to get when they mailed them, don’t you?
**
Which does nothing to help… Sorry, but saying “the public school system is horrible, so TEAR IT DOWN” is not constructive, IMHO. Oh sure, some people think otherwise, but most people think reform is better than dismantling. Sounds like that’s the case here too.
If you were simply ranting, as in, “this thing is so fucked up, may as wel ditch the whole thing,” then I question the forum you put this in and the ways you tried to defend it thus far.
**
If you wanted input limited to local people, why did you not post this on a Tallahassee forum? You do know that this board has people from other places on it, I assume. I also did not see a “Tallahassee Residents Reply Only” disclaimer on your OP either. In fact, when I ASKED where you were from, you avoided the issue for some reason. It’s not my job to look up your profile, I don’t think, though I’m glad someone had the initiative because I wonder how long it would have teken before you told us otherwise!
**
Right. Heaven forbid we have sympathy and empathy for people who rely on PT in your town. We don’t know them, after all. Nevermind that there are people here who do ride PT in other places and might have an opinion and HAD NO IDEA you were talking about your own little world because YOU NEVER BOTHERED TO MENTION THIS!
**
They posted national stats to back up rebuttals to WHAT YOU POSTED in the OP, and even a site FOR YOUR LOCALITY to rebut you. I guess that being able to back up assertions makes you a “Mr. Knowitall,” huh?
Well, better have citations to back an opinion than to not even be able to communicate what you’re trying to say, I think.
And these ways will help people who reply on PT to get to work, school or anything else… How?
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, one week, 20 hours, 2 minutes and 2 seconds.
5193 cigarettes not smoked, saving $649.17.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 45 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub]
Well, isn’t it patently obvious? By that method of figuring, you might be able to make the case that the most economically sound mode of transportation in New York City is yachting. There’s an apples and oranges comparison going on. Plus, people are paying for their own cars in addition to paying for the buses.
Hey Lib I wondered that too. I went and looked it over and that whole section is one of the few without any footnote or reference. These seems to me to be more proof of the fact that you can support anything with statistics.
grem
Ahhh, whoops! In re-reading that (after posting dammit, preview, grem, preview!), I wanted to make something VERY clear. My previous post should IN NO WAY to be taken as referring to Kimstu, I was referring to the authors of the paper in question.
grem
Libertarian, on the 1992 data on per-capita municipal costs of cars vs. buses in Madison: There’s an apples and oranges comparison going on. Plus, people are paying for their own cars in addition to paying for the buses.
True, but remember that non-car-owners are also paying part of the municipal costs of cars (which, as we’ve discussed here and elsewhere, don’t come close to covering all their costs via user fees and taxes), just as non-bus-riders are paying part of the costs of the buses. But you’re right that we would need detailed usage figures broken down by transit mode in order to determine which mode or combination of modes is optimally cost-effective. I hardly think that makes the per-capita figures “meaningless”, though; at least they tell us that the bus system makes up a comparatively small segment of absolute transit costs, contrary to what many people believe.
[rant]
Because you know what, everyone? [earth-shattering revelation approaching…] Damn near ALL motorized transport is expensive, obstructive, and polluting! Burning fuels to push around dozens or hundreds of cubic feet of thousands of pounds of metal, plastic, rubber, and human on millions of feet of paved road is intrinsically not going to be convenient or cheap. We get so accustomed to our ubiquitous need for vehicles and so caught up in our own private share of handling their costs and inconvenience that we forget about the costs and inconveniences that they inflict on everyone around us. It’s time to stop thinking about our cars as some sort of natural extension of our butts, whose costs our communities are automatically obligated to bear without question. Yes, we’re a car-dependent society and many of us like it that way, and yes, we’ve worked out ways of subsidizing our dependence that most people are willing to accept, and that’s good. But we have to start paying attention to all the real costs of car use, and be prepared to give open-minded consideration to alternatives that are genuinely more cost-effective. This widespread attitude (and I’m no longer pointing the finger specifically at SouthernStyle here, because I now think his real complaint is something different) that relying on your own car is necessarily the responsible and self-sufficient thing to do and that other transit modes are just for losers and freeloaders—that’s indefensibly ignorant and shortsighted. I’d be happy to live in a car-dependent society that’s based on real cost-effectiveness and efficiency in an undistorted market. I can’t stand living in one that’s feeding off mere laziness, snobbery, and ignorance.
[/rant]
Ahem. Thank you, I feel better now.
It pains me to say this (believe me) but I agree with Lib that the Wisconsin statistic cited is not a strong argument in favor of mass transit, since it only compares the subsidy burden of “x” number of private vehicles to “y” number of public vehicles for tax-base “a”.
However, Lib, you’ve ignored the other study Kimstu cited in the same post.
Wouldn’t you consider that statistic meaningful?
Aside from the arguments already brought up about taxes and private vehicles, I don’t see what you are trying to say here. The apples and oranges is appropriate to your yachting example, but not bussing. In a municipality, bussing is available to everyone. Certainly some people avail themselves of it more than others, but that’s true of every public service I can think of, from parks to courts to fire protection.
::highlights, copies, saves Kat’s rant::
Very well put.
I mean… um… Kim’s…
Geez, I’m not THAT tired yet, am I? sheesh
As a regular MetroTransit rider, for two bucks a pop, I can get from the VA hospital to my house. I’m not complaining about that; that’s wonderful, compared to some of the cities I’ve lived in. They also provide park-and-ride service to community events like the State Fair.
However, my criticism is that MT tends to cater (at least in my area) to commuters who work regular 8-5 jobs in either downtown Minneapolis or downtown St. Paul. There are a relatively few buses that go to and from Woodbury, the connections downtown aren’t timed very well, and there’s no bus from Woodbury to the Mall of America. (It’s not the shopping I’m interested in; it’s a major transit hub with better access to other parts of the Twin Cities). It’s also not likely to change in the future.
I can understand MT’s logic in not wanting to offer extensive service from Woodbury, which is a fairly affluent suburb where the vast majority of residents (including myself) own cars. However, IMO, it does the citizenry a tremendous disservice NOT to offer more frequent trips, and improve the timing of connections a little more. And for God’s sake, offer service to the Mall!
Robin
I live in Montreal, home of the most fabulous public-transit system in the galactic quadrant, and I would just like to say that they will get my bus pass when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers. Thank you.
Ummm… is that the same Montreal where the MUCTC posts a “Nous sommes en grave!” sign outside it’s offices twice a year like clockwork?!
Yup… wonderful PT system you got there.
Thanks for bringing constructive comment to the discussion, Kimstu. I never figured that the OP would get more than a couple of comments. I certainly never figured on this.
Satan, as much as I hate climbing down to your level, I’ll venture down this dark and dreary corridor in the hopes that I can shed some light on the darkness you call “self”.
Go back to the OP. I mentioned that a comment card regarding the local bus service, mailed from my local government, had drawn my ire. (You’ll be glad and perhaps surprised to know that I’d filled in all the little boxes and mailed it back via the return envelope before I posted.)
Perhaps I wasn’t as articulate as I should have been. If you recall (or will check) you’ll find that after several introductory statements, I listed three things that I found particularly irritating about the local mass transit system.
I then asked the members of the SDMB for advice on how to go back to the commission (the very same commission that is now studying the bus service) and present an argument that the current mass transit system is a horrible solution.
You open your reply with the condescing statement, “Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion”, make a cynical comment about the death penalty for people that can’t afford cars, and THEN state “I have no idea of your characterizations of your cities bus line”. It took us a little while to get there, but we finally got an honest statement out of Satan.
Moving forward, I mentioned the other two Tallahassee dopers to help illustrate that changes to the local bus service, including dismantling, would have zero impact on anyone posting to this board. Grem0517, one of the other Tallahasseans, has weighed in. Though he’s not in favor of dismantling, he agrees that the system has some serious problems.
Moving ahead once again, we find that Satan said, “Let’s see if I can, without being as insulting as the OP has been, sum up his arguments”. This was followed 6 paragraphs later with “Only losers take the bus.: Okay, that IS inflamatory”. I guess this means that you failed.
Satan, I don’t intimidate easily – you’re probably beginning to suspect as much. If you have constructive comments I’d certainly like to hear them. But I’ve no interest in listening to the rants of someone with a “here’s how it’s done in NYC – you need to do it the same way” attitude. You may find this hard to believe, but NYC is not representative of how most of the world operates.
And I won’t back down from my original statement that I’m in favor of dismantling the local bus system.