a good chiropractor can get a person who is in extreme pain of the musculoskeletal variety up and dancing in fairly few sessions, with maintainance adjustments as needed.
Also, part of the reason that chiropractic treatments seem to be only temporarily effective is that subluxations (yes, they do exist, even if they’re not the cause of all illness from asthma to bedwetting- basically a subluxation is a joint that is partially dislocated) is that they are frequently accompanied by muscle spasms.
When I asked you for a reputable cite that says subluxations exist, and qualified that with: “I’ve asked many radiologists about subluxations and not one of them has seen one on any type of radiologic exam. Sure, they’ve seen joints that are partially dislocated, but not the type of supposed slight dislocation that many chiropractors call spinal subluxations that we’re all supposed to have at birth and on.”,you asked me if I had a cite that says the don’t exist. It seemed by you asking that, you were a believer in the chirpractic definition of a subluxation. Now you write:
Hard to get a grasp on what you believe and don’t.
There is no way in hell you felt the junction between your fourth and fifth lumbar vertebrae actually pop out, then pop back in again.
Yes in fact they do.
Here is a site that has pictures. This chiropractor focuses on the atlas subluxations. Known as the hole-in-one theory that all spinal subluxations are cause from C-1, also known as the atlas. http://www.nucca.org/articles/the_proof_is_in_the_post.htm
Here is one that shows a different technique used to measure subluxations.
This site talks about the lack of objectivity in the current procedures most chiropractors use. But does show the current technique that is being used in more offices called paraspinal digital infered imaging. Here is a quote
Bolding that part.
Quote from x-ray vision
Here’s another x-ray showing a subluxation from a radiologist website.
On another note, let me give you a little bit of my opinion of chiropractors so I don’t come off sounding like a chiro-cultists.
Any chiropractor who gives you a 5-10 minute adjustment or sees more than 4 patients an hour… is full of shit. If the chiropractor doesn’t include another type of therapy in his office such as muscle stims, or massage therapy, then they are not going to help you. At least not in the short-term, which means you could be seeing a chiropractor for months before any results. True chiropractors, in my opinion, are the ones that give longer sessions (30 minutes) and try to educate you on where your problems stem from. Also including massage therapy before an adjustment complements the chiropractic adjustment so completely, that it shouldn’t take 50 sessions to relieve any pain. Chiropractors who complement their practices with other modalities are the ones who understand what the body needs to heal itself.
Out of the 10 chiropractors I’ve seen in my life… 3 of them have used complementary therapies. The rest were just quick sessions.
A friend of a friend of mine was just graduating from chiropractic school when he took this seminar about how to make a million dollars being a chiropractor. It involved seeing about 10 patients an hour and having multiple rooms so you didn’t have to wait in between each patient. Charge insurance 100 bucks a pop, or something ridiculous like that, and make shitloads of money.
That is the chiropractic I disagree with. The problem with the whole industry is not that subluxations don’t exist. It’s that chiropractors who truly care about your well being are few and far between.
macabresoul, I worked as an x-ray tech for a long time. I can simply tell a patient to stretch one hand down and have his second spinal radiograph look as different as the ones you posted because the spine is made up of amphiarthrodial joints. The nucca.org website you linked to is so full of quackery that it would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous. Do you actually think that those differences seen on the last set x-rays are actually improvements caused by upper cervical manipulation? Unbelievable!
You don’t think that a quack device being registered with the FDA means that the FDA endorses it, do you? It doesn’t in any way mean that the FDA even think it works.
You found the word “subluxation” on a reputable site. Don’t get that confused with the “subluxation” that chiropractors speak of that can be “fixed” with manipulations. The patient shown in the MRI radiograhs you linked to has severe rheumatoid arthritis. I guarantee you that no competent medical professional would think that her C-1 - C-2 should be manipulated.
What is it about soft tissue work that will make the adjustment stay? What kind of long term affect can this possibly have?
Because the body compensates for muscles that lose their function as stabilizers. The big posture muscles are located deep down next to the skeleton. When these muscles become dysfunctional the body will adapt to the lose of stabilization in one muscle and employ another muscle to do its job. The body is built for adaptation, which in the long term can cause these chronic problems of postural alignment. Bad postural alignment can cause tension and stress to a vertebrae and cause it to come out of alignment… thus subluxating it. You end up with a posture that is visibly out of alignment: shoulders rotated forward, one hip more forward than another, head anterior to the body’s vertical alignment…
Although these are concepts of structural integration, it explains why soft tissue therapy is helpful with other modalities. Because the body is a whole, one thing will not cure you because the whole body must be treated. You can’t see muscles on an x-ray. That is why I linked to the paraspinal thermal imager thing, Because it gives an objective view of muscle imbalance sometimes causing subluxation.
Yes i do. Read about how the x-rays are taken.
This shows that a lordosis of the cervical spine was improved after 5 months. What more would you like?
That wasn’t the point of the link. You wanted proof of a subluxation in an x-ray. And since you will undoubtedly shout quackery at any cite i give writing by a chiropractor, I found one writing by a radiologist.
The reason every website defending subluxations is written by chiropractors is because they hold the burden of proof. How much proof do you want? There are numerous research studies and articles showing how chiropractic care is beneficial to all kinds of spinal problems. As unobjective as chiropractors are in diagnosing subluxations… the technology is now out there to objectively show a subluxation before and after an adjustment. And although you may not trust an x-ray, paraspinal thermal imaging shows this change pretty consistently.
Head clamps stop the head from moving. The x-rays we’re talking about show the T and L spine. I already told you the T and L spine can easily flex from side to side just by a patient stretching one hand down. It doesn’t matter how still he head is. What more would you like?
Do you have any scientific proof that paraspinal thermal imaging actually works?
It’s not that they are quacks anymore than your regular physician is a quack for perscribing antibiotics for a viral infection. Which happens way to damn much and cures absolutely nothing.
You hit the nail on the head with number 1. chiropractors can’t agree on thier techniques, and this is why the science behind it takes so much flak. There are so many sects of chiropractors who use different techniques and have different principles when it comes to treating the spine (and subluxations for that matter).
From what I know, chiropractic is complementary to western medicine. Whereas osteopathic is an alternative to western medicine.
Chiro’s focus mainly on the spine, with high velocity thrusting techniques, deisgned to realign and mobilise the spine.
Osteopaths use a more wide range of techniques such as: high-velocity spine thrusts, stretching, soft tissue work, cranial manipulation, and joint movement and manipulation. They focus on other parts of the body besides just the back.
Each person I’ve known go to a chiropractice (three) has come back with the amazing news that they have one leg shorter than the other, which is the root problem of all their suffering. This makes me think it’s a catch all, tell 'em something, diagnosis. In fact, the third person who told me this was quite suprised when I told them their diagnosis before they mentioned it.
Where as a massage, is a massage, is a massage. All good no matter what quackery theorising is going on.
As for osteopaths, the vast majority of them have joined us allopaths and there is little significant difference in the way an MD and a DO practices these days. I’ve had 3 DOs as my personal physician at one time or another, two since I got my MD. And I’ve worked with many others.
A DO who practices evidence-based medicine AND does manipulation for relief of musculo-skeletal symptoms is truly a find to be treasured!
This is a good study done by… I know… chiropractors.
Now there is no way you can honestly tell me, as a former x-ray tech, that thermography is quakery.
I agree with you, and with Qadgop, that there are some quacks out there in the chiropractic world. But I believe that chiropractic care is still a positive treatment for a variety of spinal problems.
I also agree with you Qadgop that any chiropractor who still holds the principles of Palmer and practices them is full of shat.
I actually once had a chiropractor tell me I didn’t have one leg shorter than the other, and to stop padding the heel of one shoe in order to even out my gait. I had actually brought the subject up to her because I had some things going on that I thought indicated it- the pain was worse on the right side of my back, my right hip seemed higher than my left when I was standing straight, I walked with a slight limp, stuff like that.
The lady had a great set of hands, but unfortunately she had an ego to match them, and since I thought of it before she did, she denied the possiblity.So, I stopped putting a lift in my shoe.
After a few years of increasing pain, a physical therapist noticed that I have a scoliosis in my lumbar region, stretched me out on the table and found, yep, I have one leg shorter than the other. A lift in my left shoe led to a substantial decrease (though unfortunately not the complete elimination) of my pain.
If I may take a wild guess, I would be willing to bet a bottle of Three Buck Chuck that all three of your friends had pain that was worse on one side of their back than the other before they went to a chiropractor.
Oh, and I do live within walking distance of a Trader Joe’s.
Look at your diet to see if you’re low on potassium, magnesium, or calcium. Most people don’t hydrate themselves properly and the lack of electrolytes often shows up as muscle cramps. If you’re taking a Cox-2 Inhibitor then you might want to read what the FDA says about it. I stopped taking it because I experienced severe leg cramps. This was just before the warnings came out. I figured if my legs were cramping for no reason then my poorly excersized heart was somewhere down the list of muscles to follow. I started taking a combination of glucosamine, chondroitin, potassium and MSM and noticed a marked difference in my back. Since I think most of the stuff in health food stores is crap I was surprised. When I threw my back out a month ago I slammed this stuff down and I was up again in 24 hours. I was incapacitated to the point I could not sit up. I had to crawl to get to the bathroom when this happened so mobility was a big deal to me when it happened.
To address the original question, I would like to broaden the area of consideration to include Yoga. Dollar for dollar, I get much more relief from Yoga classes than anything else. I’ve had back problems for years that include a broken bone that floats loose in my neck. Yoga allows you to manipulate your back (and body) in a structured format that covers all your muscles and bones. 60 minutes of this compared to 5 minutes of Chiropractic manipulation and you will understand the difference. I never have to go to a doctor for back problems when I’m taking the classes. Eventually I expect to get a regime going at home that won’t require classes.
The only time I find a Chiropractor useful is for lower back problems where it appears that a vertebrae is pinching a nerve or about to. Having it “worked on” followed by muscle therapy (muscle stimulator) is exactly what my DO would do. The DO is cheaper because of insurance but I’d rather pay the extra $25 and avoid the hour plus wait. A massage is nice for daily muscle stress but I’ve gotten nothing from it if a muscle were truly spasming.
What I’ve described above is something everyone is told but ignores (diet and exercise). It works for the obvious reasons.
Bolding mine. Seems to me you’ve provided the cite for me. Thanks, I’ll take the word of your many radiologists that subluxations exist. Unless that your contention is that the joints of the spine, alone among all the joints of the body, are immune from becoming subluxated.
So, that feeling of shifting followed instantly by extreme pain that shot all the way down my legs and drove me to my knees, was what, my imagination? Sorry, but I like to use my imagination for more pleasant things.
On reread, I realize that some of my posts are reading as very testy and sarcastic.
This has been a bizarre week for me- it started with me getting fired from my job and is going to end with me starting work in what I seem to have mis-termed a spa (inspection revealed lack of a wet room). In the meantime, I have been shopping like a lunatic, moving furniture around, and generally going insane because basically I had to get a massage room up and ready to work in on four days notice (I thought I was going to have a couple of weeks to get things ready).
Yeah, I’m happy, but my nerves have been rubbed a bit raw.
So, I apologize, especially to x-ray vision for being unpleasant.
Laying aside for the moment of whether that little out of whackness in a person’s spine is a subluxation or if it’s something else…
Most people when they demand “scientific explanations” of the effectiveness of hands-on modalities seem to mean some kind of double blind study.
This is a legitimate demand for such things as herbal remedies or homeopathy, in which the effectiveness can be measured against the placebo effect. Howver, with anything hands-on, it is well-nigh impossible to do this because well…
Let’s take massage as an example.
Say I’m participating in a study to determine whether massage is effective to relieve musculoskeletal pain. You get two groups of people. One group gets a real massage, the other gets… what? You can’t really do a “fake” massage the way you could give someone a “fake” drug. The fact that the therapist participating in the study wasn’t, you know, touching the patient would be a dead giveaway. You could do a study on whether people who got massage got more pain relief than an unmassaged group, but there’s no way to evaluate whether the massage itself was beneficial, or in the client was simply experiencing a placebo effect.
The same holds true with chiropractic.
I actually did find at www.pathguy.com a double-blind study for acupuncture in which data from patients who received acupuncture treatments using actual mapped points was compared with those who were needled in “fake” points, and the results in many cases were quite favorable.
To attempt something of this nature with chiropractic would be at the very least unethical and at worst extremely dangerous. I mean, you’re messin’ wit’ people’s spines here, brudda.