Math....

Great Debates
21

Thanks, ElJeffe. Good stuff.

Now, SmileyDeath, even if, in your infinite teenaged wisdom, you don’t accept the need for math, please be sure to learn it anyway, so that you can meet the basic requirements in college and get it out of the way.

Most of the English teachers at my high school (in addition to the social studies teachers and the principal) struggle mightily with math, and seem to be very successful anyway. This suggests to me that maybe an English professor doesn’t really need much math. But please learn it just in case I’m wrong.

22

You’ll be surprised, Smileydeath, how often math rears its ugly head. If you buy a house, you’ll be neck deep in it. When you’re planning for retirement, you’ll have figures coming out your ears. When you’re evaluating loans for a car or something else, you’ll need it.

Essentially, you need a good head for math for pretty much anything involving money, which, unless you’re planning to do without, will be with you for your entire life. That good head is learned, not given, BTW.

Also, say you’re going to finish the basement in your house; any construction involves some math. Moreover, the analytical skills can’t be picked up in English class (it’s a different sort of skill); those will be necessary in a whole lot more areas.

In short, even if you choose a profession only minimally involved in math, there’s a thousand ways in which it comes up, and you’re at a disadvantage if you don’t have it.

Contrary to what Ultrafilter says, it isn’t always fun. But it is possible to find a way to look at it that’s interesting. Dont’ be discouraged by a bad teacher.

23

I would wager pretty heavily that this isn’t true. There isn’t a whole lot of science that requires no math ability beyond algebra.

I do know a few scientists who aren’t very good at math. It’s routinely a problem for them, and limits what they can reasonably accomplish. I made it through DiffEq, and still could use a heck of a lot more just to do my job well.

Honestly, other than a learning disability (my brother still can barely add 2 and 2), I can’t see a good reason anybody shouldn’t try to at least make it through single variable calculus. But that’s just me…

24

That wasn’t my claim. I think that’s what ElJeffe said.

25

Well if you like science, believe me, knowing the math is going to make it a lot more fun.

26

I have one of those…But it’s never realy affecyed me Math-wise… I do get the stuff taught somewhat…

27

Why? The only math I have done in sciencethat I can think of is measuring things…

28

The study of forces at work in interactions is pretty much all math, and very little measuring. Ballistic paths? Math. Work done? Math. Work needed to be done? Math.

29

Later on you’ll be taking those measurements and applying formulas. Unless you’re in Biology maybe, but even then you have to work with math eventually.

30

Employers generally hire applicants with the most feathers in their caps.

It sure can’t hurt to have one more useful skill, and it just might help.

A few days ago I totally impressed my department’s VP by explaining him how this tired old chestnut works:


1. Pick the number of times a week that you would like to sex.
(Try for more than once but less than 10)
2. Multiply this number by 2 
3. Add 5. 
4. Multiply it by 50. 
5. If you have already had your birthday this year add 1752.
If you haven't, add 1751. 
6. Now subtract the four digit year that you were born. 

You should have a three digit number. The first digit of this was your
original number.  The next two numbers are... 

YOUR AGE!

From the way he talked, he must have thought this was black magic or something. He was impressed that I was able to show him how it’s just a simple algebra problem and nothing more.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that a little math can help you avoid being baffled by bullshit, and maybe even help you avoid being taken by a con artist.

31

Ah. I don’t think I’d be bullshitted by something like that…

32

I guess you aren’t taking physics.

33

Excuses excuses excuses… I would have had a B+, but I can’t spell, I know algebra, but not trig, my grammar isn’t this bad, I just can’t type… blah blah blah…

Listen to what Ultrafilter said, because he has it exactly right. Either you will use the skills directly, or you will benefit from the process of learning how to think, probably both.

34

SmileyDeath, just wait until you’re an astronaut stranded on the surface of Mars, and you’ll wish you’d paid attention in math class!

35

Thanks, now I now that when I’m stranded on mars, Knowing what is the congruent in a 90 degree angle will help.

36

Re: No math required in Biology…

As a (soon to be) PhD in biology, I am sick and tired of this statement. MAny students get into bio wanting to avoid math. Guess what? To be any kind of modern biologist, you need to know tons of math.

Molecular biology: Why won’t your enzyme do what it is purported to do? How many units did you use? What is the molarity, concentration, pH etc… of your reaction solution? Are you performing the experiment at the correct temperature for proper kinetics? - ALL these things take math

Descriptive biology: How does the (fossil, animal, plant, etc…) specimen that just arrived in the museum compare with others of similar type? How far from the average is it? How can you describe all measured differences in a single parameter for easy comparison? Yup- math again

Ecology: ALmost too much to list. Any type of theoy is ALL math. Many theoretical ecologists wouldn’t know a live organism if it walked up, bit them, pooped on their shoe and drove off in their car. Many major ecology papers these days are mathematical models, trying to work out diverse topics such as how diferent species can co-exist in the same area, mate choice in birds, problems relating to conserving endangerd species, etc…

Evolutionary biology: Much modern work in evolution is again, mathematical theory; problems such as the roles of selection vs. random chance (or “drift”), sexual conflicts, genetic structure, etc…

Statistics: Every type of biology ABSOLUTLY requires a working knowlege of statistcs. You have a new drug, you give it to one group, ut not another. The group receiving the drug had 20% fewer cases of disease. Did the drug work? You don’t have the slightest idea UNTIL YOU DO THE MATH!

These are just a few notions that I have pulled of the top of my head in a fit of semi-drunk procrastination. As for my own story, I did not take calculus until I got to graduate school. If I was smart, I would have taken it in hih school, and taken all the math I could. When I started grad school, I told myself that I would avoid math. My thesis is about 3/5 mathematical theory. I have a paper coming out; it is ALL MATH! (works out the theory behind a way to spread a pathogen through a vector insect population (such as mosquitoes) to alter the age structure of the population. This in turn alters the ability of the vector population to maintain transmisison of a human parasite (such as malaria)).

Mozman (quantitative biologist)

37

Yikes!

38

One other area I forgot to add (semidrunkenness doesn’t help).

The biggest area of advance in madern biology is genomics and bioinformatics. There is an astronomical amount of data being generated (billions of bases in a single genome, for instance) The ability to analyse all this cames from advances made in mathematics and computer science. The ability to be both a biology and computer whiz is rare but highly sought after; someone who is both a molecular biologist and a mathematician/computer scientist these days can pretty much write their own ticket to fame, fortune and hot babes (or hunky guys depending on personal inclination).

MM

39

Settle down, kid, 'cos uncle kabbes is going to tell you a few things about education, life choices and mathematics.

You, I understand, are 14 years old. This means that - believe it or not - you have not actually studied mathematics yet. Neither have you studied science! What you have studied are numeracy and a bit of general knowledge.

You can’t say that you don’t like maths. You can’t say that you’re good at science. I know this to be true because you haven’t done anything yet that a mathematician or a scientist would recognize as being maths or science. If nothing else, your claim that science doesn’t involve maths is proof of this. Stick around these boards a bit, talk to some professional scientists and maybe you’ll come to realise that science is mathematics. Or maybe you won’t, because at 14 years of age you haven’t even learned the most basic of tools and language yet for the scientists to begin to discuss their subject with you in any kind of detail. Let alone get into the meat of it.

There’s a lot of knowledge out there. A lot a lot. And the gaining of knowledge speeds up as you get more of it. Because it’s like building a house. The foundations take a long time to put in place, but once they are there the construction of the interesting part can go up like nobody’s business. Your schooling right now is helping to construct those foundations.

And the thing about foundations is that they’re pretty much the same regardless of the building you’re eventually going to construct. Whether the building becomes an office block or a school comes later. But one way or another it’s going to need firm footing, a sewage system, electrical cables and so on. You have to think of your school subjects in this way. There is a certain body of knowledge that is so basic and fundamental that we consider it a minimum standard for functioning as a useful human being in society, whatever form that function takes.

No matter what you choose to do in life, the education you’re getting now will be useful. All of the education you’re getting now.

And at the very least it’s making you a more rounded human being. What finer goal could you possibly wish for?

So that’s the education. What about the life choices?

Here’s a thing: I didn’t even like my maths classes before the age of 15 or so. I found them tremendously dull. No, I was going to be a professional violinist.

Then we started to do some maths that was slightly more like actual maths.

All of a sudden I started to find it very interesting indeed. Even fun. By the time I was 16 I thought it might be fun to be an astrophysicist (or a barrister. Or a… ). By the time I was 17 I thought blow that - I’m going to be a mathematician. So I ended up spending three years doing a mathematics degree. At Cambridge, of all places. In the space of three years I went from dreading the classes to choosing to spend my life at them.

My point is that nobody knows at age 14 what they’ll end up doing. I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to one person who became what they thought they’d become at 14. Your tastes change. Your interests change. Your influences change. And it doesn’t stop at university either, kid. You then have to choose a job. And then you’ve been working in a job for a few years and decide that you want a different job. Life is a very rapidly and substantially evolving beast.

So for heaven’s sake, don’t cut off your choices now. You have no idea what you’ll want at age 28, let alone age 56. Your mathematics classes are giving you very basic knowledge that is key to much in this life. Take our respective experienced words for it. Make the most of it.

And finally, onto mathematics itself.

A few people have pointed out to you that mathematics is about problem solving. I can’t emphasise this enough to you. Mathematics teaches you how to break down a large, apparently intractible problem into its component parts, solve those parts and put them back together again. This is probably the most important life skill you can have. Don’t sniff at it.

Mathematicians are in huge demand in industry. And it’s not because they know how to use cyclic groups to prove the analytical insolubility of quintics. It’s because they are trained experts in seeing problems as a series of pieces. It’s because mathematics teaches you how to take on board new knowledge and use it.

So don’t write off mathematics. You might yet find it interesting, when you meet the real stuff. And you’ll only be able to pursue the real stuff if you’ve mastered the basics you’re covering now. And the skills you learn in mathematics are the ones that will eventually lead you to be able to pick and choose the most interesting and most well paid jobs out there. Believe me on this.

pan

40

I wish I had a dad like kabbes. He’s so Mr Brady. But cuter.