'nother "Math is stupid" thread

In My Humble Opinion
1

You know math in higher learning has becoming more and more uselessly required.

So here I am at U of M going to major in Biology and looking at the prerequisites they have Calc I & II required to get a degree. So here is the discussion with me and the advisor:
Me: “So uh, why is Calculus required for a Biology degree?”

The advisor shrugs, “Its just always been that way.”

Me: “Where did you get your Biology degree?”

The advisor says, “Here at University of Michigan.”

Me: “Do you use calculus?”

The advisor says, “Not since I was required to take it.”

Me: !@^%@^!#^!!!^^%#!!
Why in the HELL do these dimwits continue to require a subject that has NO pratical use in the real world? If Bob wants to play with super-duper-equations then let him do it, but allow normal people like me persue his degree without having to get my hands dirty in that mess.

We have two doctors and a pharmacist in the family; one is a Cardiologist and the other is a Dermatologist just for the record. I asked them do they use Calculus in their job at all or was it pertinent to getting their Ph.D. My uncle (Who is a pharmacist) told me that intermediate algebra was used calculute dosages in some of his classes but no calculus was used.

I send a letter to the head of the biology curriculum department. He explains that Calculus is used in ** some ** aspects of biochemistry and genetics.

HELLO.

I am majoring in Biology

Not in Biochemitry.

Two seperate degrees. <sigh>
This is infuriating. It is tantamount to forcing an Education major to take Mortuary Science classes because its " kewl" and everyone in the country requires it.

I’m not even gonna lie, I suck at math, it officially went over my head when they started mixing alphabets and numbers together. Took chemistry here and I failed miserably, I expected questions something on the lines of:

“Drawing upon your knowledge of nomenclature, what is NaCL?”

Instead, I got questions like:

“If 35.4g of titanium tetrachlorhide is recovered from 17.4 of crude ore what is the mass percentage of of TiO2 in the ore?”

That was the first time I just broke out uncontrollably in tears in an examination room and not in the privacy of my room. Math over and over again hasn’t just been a source of frustration, it has been a metaphorical demon constantly telling me that I’m not smart enough, that I should give up, that I’ll never get this degree.

What ticks me off is the physics requirement as well. I honestly would like to knowing how much “friction” is present while ice skating is necessary in understanding the fundamentals of biological functions.
Whew. That feels much better.

  • Honesty
2

Ohmigosh Honesty! I feel your pain! Math has always been impossible for me, and a source of constant anger, frustration, and sadness. When I graduated high school I thought I was done with it. Unfortunately, in college I was required to take two semesters of Statistics. I thought I would die. Anyway, to make a long story short, I took the stupid courses, only because they were required. I never thought to question the requirements, but I’m glad you tried. Also, I recently found out that there is such a thing as a Math Learning Disorder, and am now in the process of getting tested for it. So maybe we really can be smart and bad at math!
Good luck!:slight_smile:

3

Okay - I guess I get to be the first to show up in defense of math.

Math [and physics even more so] is, to a very large extent, about learning to think in a certain way. It comes really easily to some people. It’s really hard for other people. That doesn’t mean it’s not a valuable experience for you to to try to think that way.

While I have great faith in your ability to get through the rest of your life without feeling a need to take a derivative ever again, I’m going to feel scared/sorry for you if you never feel a need to reason through something, or attempt to solve a problem in a logical way. And that’s what, underneath the particular content of the math course, math’s about.

Huge amounts of college aren’t about picking up specific information - if it was, you’d get a library card, not a 4 year course schedule. Especially in the sciences, college is about giving you a basic, broad background, and then the tools you need to acquire and apply specific information to whatever it is you’re trying to do. The point of a degree is that you’ve learned to think, with an emphasis in <insert major subject here>, so you only do yourself a disservice by shutting yourself down by deciding that math has nothing to offer you.

4

Hmmmmmmm… well, in my field of study (electrical engineering) I am regularly forced to do math so horrendous it would no doubt kill an individual who balks at Calc II, so don’t be terrbily hurt if I don’t empathize quite as much as Sands.

Anyway, as I’m sure you, and cardi/dermatolgist family members are aware, a degree in Biology can serve as a jumping-off point to numerous academic endeavors that may lead to further specialized carreers-- doctors, biochemists, and even a plain ole’ biologists (whatever it is that a simple biologist does…). It is the responsibility of the U of M to provide a very rigorous and broad education to anyone who seeks a biology degree as this will provide said individual with the tools necessary to specialize into something a bit more grandiose than a simple run-of-the-mill biologist. In a perfect world, all universities would have the funding to create a special curriculum for all majors down to the lowest level of specialization. In this world, people in my line of study are frequently made to learn things like FORTRAN!!! (now that is worthless education…) :smiley:

5

:smiley:
Erika kinda beat me to the punch. I really have to learn to type faster…

6

Well, I’m going to try to help you. My oldest son is one of those people who hates math, I’m just the opposite, it comes easily for me. Like I told my son, I can’t make it relevant, but I can show you a kind of coolness to math. Sorry for the lenghtyness.

09
18
27
36
45
54
63
72
81
90

The number sequence above are multiples of nine (or the nine times table one through ten). Now if you look at the lower half of the sequence you’ll notice the its a mirror image of the upper half. Ex. 54 is a mirror image of 45, 63 for 36 and so on. Something else is that all multiples of nine share a unique property. The individual numbers making up the multiple when added together equals 9. Ex. 54 broken to 5+4=9. Or 456 x 9=4104 and 4+1+0+4=9. No matter how big a number you use, you’ll always get nine. Ex. 123456789 X 9=1111111101=9.

That helped my son, not so much with understanding math, but that playing with number could be interesting, and so he tries harder.

7

I watched my sister (who studied theatre) struggle with required math courses. I myself love math. So I am sort of torn on the issue. On the one hand, for her, it was a completely useless exercise that served only to frustrate and anger her. I would have been glad if she could have been spared the experience (since she failed the first time, and barely passed the second time, wasting a whole semester of time and tuition.)

On the other hand, I’m very hesitate to apply the rule of “not gonna need it for my job” to things like high school and college education. I’m in an academic field, but that reasoning would still eliminate the literature, sociology, history, music, and french courses that I took as part of my college requirements. I use none of them directly in the course of my job. Some of them, French in particular, were hard for me. However, I still feel far better off having been exposed to them than if I had only taken math and science classes.

Note that I say this having finished all the courses. My guess is that you’ll get through them, and then be proud of the accomplishment itself even though you’ll likely still have the subject like poison.

8

Hate the subject like poison, that is. English was hard for me too, apparently.

9

Hey ** Sands ** can you give me any information on this Math Learning Disorder? I would love to hear about it. There is a test at U of M which can exempt you from taking the stupid language requirement. Apparently, there are some people who are unable to learn another language.

And ** Ericka ** I agree with you on some points. For instance, I want to teach Biology on a High School level. While there might be people who are getting a Biology degree to go into Biochemistry (I don’t understand why they just wouldn’t get a Biochem degree, but I digress) or perhaps getting into some math-intensive pharmacy; it just seems wasteful for me to be forced to take these classes.

What’s worse is that because of it, it seems I might be forced to take English as a major and just minor in Biology. I have other friends who are literally terrified of taking physics. Sadly, I am not even proficient in algebra much less calculus.

For math, its OK until it takes more than two steps to solve the problem. If its a four-part problem (for example), I begin to blank out and I’m unable to concentrate.

2x2 is fine.

But if you give me:

2x5x2x8

I can’t even bring myself to attempt to solve it. When I force to, I do it in the most inefficient way. Yea, I’m 20 and I still use my fingers. :wink: And YES I do know my timetables. It is excruciatingly difficult for me to mentally computate numbers.

What’s even more distressing is that the tutors and teachers I have had in the past are unable to understand how hard it is for me. They pass it off as laziness or ‘not applying myself’. It seems when it comes to math people are not sympathetic whatsoever.

I do plan on fighting the math requirement at U of M. Just because from the professors of Biochemistry and Genetics that I’ve talked to all have said that knowing calculus will not aid nor hinder someone’s success in this subject at the Bachelor level.

  • Honesty
10

My degree’s in math; my interest is in computability and complexity theory, which both tend to feature ridiculously long, detail-oriented arguments, so I may not be the most empathetic person out there.

Everything Erika said is dead-on. For a lot of people, math is their only exposure to quantitative reasoning, which is a very different thing from qualitative reasoning. The facts aren’t important, but the method of thinking is.

Having said that, I don’t think that calculus is the right choice for anyone who doesn’t have to take it. I don’t know how other universities are run, but my school (UVA) simply required people to take a math course. A statistical literacy class would be far more valuable to most people than a calculus class, and it would definitely benefit those who would benefit from a calculus class. So if you can, don’t take calculus, take stat. There’ll be time later on to learn the calculus if you want to do graduate studies.

11

I used to like and be good at math, but then I got a string of bad teachers and just… turned off. Now I just read Hunter S. Thompson and Will Durant during class and cram for the tests. I survive. I’d be good if I tried, since I used to be and I get it if I pay attention.

I just don’t think it’s worth it and I find the entire practice of mandatory courses morally repugnant anyway. If I had my way I’d be taking a lot of history, literature and a language or two, but no math or science.

12

I feel ya Honesty and Sands . Although Erika 's point is very much valid, I think that once you learn calculus, algebra, trig, and what-not in highschool, it dosn’t need to be re-introduced in college, unless of course you’re going into a field that requires you use some sort of math. I too do bad in my math subjects although its strange… even though I do bad in class, whenever I have to take some (stupid) standardized test, I always score in the top percentile of my grade in the math section. Strange, huh? I guess this can only be linked to the dreaded disease of laziness.

13

Wouldn’t you need differential calculus to describe population growth and interaction rates? My math class typically used biology for most of it’s “real-world” questions.

14

I don’t know Honesty. Ok, i’m biased. I like math and anything that teaches one to be consistant, logical, and meticulous couldn’t be all bad. Of course there’s other ways to learn that but the staff really should be able to explain the why better. Now if you were talking about foreign language requirements I’d totally understand.(I mean seriously, we’re talking about a stuff I learned, I had no interest in, and made me completely despise the subject afterwards. And before anyone ask I actually realize what the one thing that absolutely gauled me about it. My school claims that f.l. is one of the cornerstones of liberal arts education and is extremely important that any student be fluent in at least one other useless language. This subject is so incredibly important that naturally they use the least experienced staff they can possibly find to actually do the courses for the “generic” level. I mean we’re talking about people that probably have taught at most 2 or 3 courses and yet I’m supposed to believe it’s important for everyone. That just makes me livid.)

15

Calculus is fundamentally easy to understand, even though the execution can be a bit tricky.

Probability and statistics rely on some fuzzy concepts that confuse those without some basic training in math.

I think the best kind of courses for majors that do not require math is discrete structures.

16

The best kind of math is “Math in Society”—fabulous course. Absolutely wonderful. Can’t remember a single thing, but man, I enjoyed being there. (Ok, I do remember learning about scheduling and Hamiltonian circuits…)

17

At my school, the only required classes in one’s major are 8 or 9 classes in that major. That’s a quarter of all classes taken throughout 4 years, and the other 75% of time can be spent taking whatever classes you want.

That said, I’ve branched out and taken everything from Modern Lit, Philosophy, Chaucer, and Fine Arts to Calc 2, Comp Sci. Econ and Psych, etc. I think that one of the tenets of higher education is to gain a well-rounded (if not extensive) knowledge in a lot of different areas. I absolutely hated Econ, but I toughed it out and I’m glad that I now have a fundamental knowledge of markets, supply/demand, etc. It taught me to think a certain way- I’m definitely not cut out to be an economist (and yes, it did make me feel stupid) but the experience is a beneficial one to have. Everyone should have to be confronted with a stupifying subject during college.

Your University is doing you a favor (and I agree wholeheartedly with Erika) by exposing you to subjects that you wouldn’t ordinarily touch with a ten foot pole.

18

Math is evil and must be destroyed.

19

This sounds like an anxiety problem rather than a learning disorder, and it’s something you’re going to have to confront eventually. Filling out a tax form involves more than two steps; so does computing a grade point average or figuring out which brand of ice cream is cheaper when one is priced by the ounce and another by the pint. Your university is probably doing you a favor in the long run, although throwing you head-first into calculus may not be the best way to go about it. I’d suggest you do some preparation on your own:

  1. As Stuffy said, numbers are neat. Go to the kids’ section of your local library and browse through some of the books about math – not textbooks, but the kind that tell you about fun stuff like Fibonacci numbers and give you puzzles to solve. (The I Hate Mathematics Book is excellent, probably out of print but there may be a copy or two hanging about.) There’s nothing like a good children’s book for simplifying a subject and making it entertaining.

  2. Get a tutor for basic algebra and trig – an intelligent math major with good communication skills who really thinks this stuff is fun. A lot of high school math teachers are poor explainers or less than enthusiastic about the subject or both. The right teacher and LOTS of one-on-one attention can make a huge difference.

  3. Keep an open mind. You’re NOT incapable of learning math, you just haven’t learned it yet. Approach it as if it were something totally new (and really, if you were tuned out or scared stiff in previous classes, it is new; you haven’t had the opportunity to learn it properly before).

Hope this helps. For the record, I was raised in a household where we were not ALLOWED to dislike math (or any academic subject, for that matter). At the time I thought my father was suffering from an outrageous case of reality-denial; by the time I reached college age, I was beginning to see the wisdom of this attitude.

20

You use calculus every time you catch a ball.