Matrix Reloaded plot discussion (Spoilers Galore, NO spoiler boxes!!)

[godzillatemple]

OK, I’m still having trouble undertsanding how Neo can be human when the Architect says things like:

Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication.

Here’s a thought, though…

How much of who we are (especially how we think and what we feel) is based on some absolute, unalterable essence (which we could call a “soul” I suppose), and how much is based on our experiences in life? Yes, we all have choice, but if two people are born into the exact same situation, have the exact same upbringing, and experience the exact same experiences, there’s probably a high likihood that the two people would end up thinking and feeling the same way regardless of differences in their individual genetic makeup.

And who, of course, controls what experiences somebody within the Matrix has during his or her life? The software running the Matrix, of course. So maybe, when the Architect talks about people being based on a particular predication “by design” he simply means that they were given the exact experiences necessary to cause them to think and feel a certain way.

The “flaw” in the Matrix means that certain people will inevitably be given the experiences that will enable them to perceive and control the Matrix and want to rebel against it. It’s a major flaw, but still better than the flaw in the original Matrix, wherein the majority of people rejected the Matrix outright and woke up.

I still don’t get the part about Neo needing to download his code back into the source, though…

Barry

[Mahaloth]

**Also, I see no reason for an anomaly to crop up every 100 years. The architect would have just said it’s every 100 years, rather than counting by anomalies. Since they are random abberrations in the code, the time between #5 and Neo could be 100 years, but between #4 and #5 could have been 950 years or whatever. **

In the videogame, there is a homeless man(who also appears in the trailer for Revolutions) who says, “The last Zion lasted only 72 hours. 72 hours!”

** The architect wasn’t really giving him a choice. When he said the LEFT door, did he mean HIS left, or Neo’s left?

There is no choice–just mere randomness, coincidence, and luck.

Just something else for all of you to try and fathom . **

He said, “The door on your right.”

Yes, he said, “the left”, but if the brothers cop out on that, they are lamer than George Lucas.

:eek:

[Rubystreak]

Hey JMan, I like your theory that Neo’s Oneness is what is causing the glitch, and that he’s just a patch. Makes sense.

*Originally posted by GilaB *
** So I’m pretty sure the Merovingian is a program, because she out-and-out says that the Keymaker is being held by a program, which doesn’t leave too much wiggle room. **

Have you read some of the posts theorizing that the Merovingian was once a human but was able to download his consciousness onto the Matrix, maybe upon his death? There’s no reason why the Merovingian might not have been a previous One who, at his imminent death, decided to continue his (and Persephone’s) consciousnesses as programs.

[smiling_bandit]

Count me in one the “Zion is real” side. I thin that Neo now has a connection with the Matrix all the time. Actually, scratch that.

I think he is the Matrix.

He is the One, who carries the ultimate expression of the Matrix and everything it can be around inside fo him. Is it supernatural? Yeah. He hasn’t just freed his mind from the “other” Matrix. He’s freed it from the limits of existance.

[Moeman]

Someone said something about the plate number AL 887.

If I am right in the conversion to binary
AL 887 = 010000010100110000100000001110000011100000110111

[coax]

i dont think the screens in the architects room is neos unconscious mind, i think it’s threads of time.
possibilites that could never have happened, but could have happened had he done something different in whatever event before.
see this is about fate and choice.
when morpheus says “what happened, happened, and couldnt have happened any other way”,
the screens basically show other neos in other tangent worlds.
think of it as a ball beng thrown into a wall, thus bouncing off that wall, into another wall, then maybe on the floor.
this bouncing is caused by physics, and the ball does not control where it bounces, laws of nature does.
except the walls represent neo’s neural net in the brain, an almost infinte amount of walls, that is so small, and the ball bounces off a wall every microsecond, because of time.
cause and effect.

and also, the architect says that the other neos had a much more general “the one” experience, while neo had a much more specific one, vis a vie love, as he so adequatly put it.
i think this means that neo was the first one to choose that door, because he was the first one who had the choice of love vs humanity.

and next, about the architect making a matrix that was perfect, and then creating one where humans could explore their ‘darker’ side.
excuse me but, this is bs, in the garden of eve, god didn’t make adam eat the apple, he did it because that’s the way humans are.
so how much in the matrix do the plugged in humans control?
i mean if he can control what people think and do, it doesn’t make sense.
he didn’t write the peoples minds, he wrote(and by wrote i mean coding the matrix) the world in which humans live in.
so the choice of making it utopian was never up to him, it was up to the humans.

considering how a computer works, you know a computer game right?
you can only move there and there, you can only do a certain amount of actions(shoot someone, kill someone, pick up certain keys etc), the matrix could never work in this fashion.
if he means that they set up a set of actions and thoughts for people, where evil was not possible, then humans would not be human in this world.
no, it means the architect simply created a world for minds to roam about in, where everyone brought their own mind into a world that had no presets, except the laws of nature, that the architect coded in, and they can break.

so basically, i think it’s impossible to know what zion really is, altho im pretty sure it’s another part of the matrix network, or a new revision of it, where neo is now discovering his abilites.
this can only be answered in the Revolutions movie tho i think.

[gonzoron]

The architect could make a utopia without controlling everyone.

Imagine if you will: no need for evil.

1. Everyone has every material posession they want and looks exactly as they wish too. Therefore no need for theft, or envy.
2. No one gets hurt or dies. They are only plugged into the matrix, so there’s no need to program in pain or injury. To shoot me, fine… I keep walking, it’s not real. Therefore violence is pointless, and coercion nonexistant.
3. to be really out there, you go one step further. no need for actual contact between the people. Each person could live in their own personal matrix, populated by simulations of whomever they would most like to be around, all of whom would be obediant and friendly to the owner of that matrix.

There… utopia, such as it is. Put the most vile person in the world in their own matrix, and it’s utopia to them, they can beat up, steal from and abuse all the AI’s they want with no repercussions, and everyone else is unharmed by them.

[Mahaloth]

*Originally posted by gonzoron *
**The architect could make a utopia without controlling everyone.

Imagine if you will: no need for evil.

1. Everyone has every material posession they want and looks exactly as they wish too. Therefore no need for theft, or envy.
2. No one gets hurt or dies. They are only plugged into the matrix, so there’s no need to program in pain or injury. To shoot me, fine… I keep walking, it’s not real. Therefore violence is pointless, and coercion nonexistant.
3. to be really out there, you go one step further. no need for actual contact between the people. Each person could live in their own personal matrix, populated by simulations of whomever they would most like to be around, all of whom would be obediant and friendly to the owner of that matrix.

There… utopia, such as it is. Put the most vile person in the world in their own matrix, and it’s utopia to them, they can beat up, steal from and abuse all the AI’s they want with no repercussions, and everyone else is unharmed by them. **

Wouldn’t people refuse(on a subconcious level) to accept this?

[KinSaba]

*Originally posted by Mahaloth *
**Wouldn’t people refuse(on a subconcious level) to accept this? **

Hence the failure of the first matrix.

[coax]

maybe that’s exactly what happened mahaloth.
this is getting more and more difficult for me to comprehend.
you think you have the spin on what’s going on and someone posts something that changes your way of thinking.
i wish revolutions was here already.

[Rubystreak]

*Originally posted by coax *
and next, about the architect making a matrix that was perfect, and then creating one where humans could explore their ‘darker’ side.
excuse me but, this is bs, in the garden of eve, god didn’t make adam eat the apple, he did it because that’s the way humans are.
so how much in the matrix do the plugged in humans control?
i mean if he can control what people think and do, it doesn’t make sense.

You know, if you have the power to create the setting and set the parameters, and you instill in your creations a sense of curiosity, you can pretty much guarantee a certain outcome. Without getting to matters of religion better of in GD, God put Adam and Eve (inquisitive and probably bored primates that they were) into a situation (and allowed a certain trickster character in to tempt them) where it was inevitable that they would eat the apple. Ever tell a kid that the should never, ever do something, ever ever ever? What always happens? So it was an exercise of free will, but the deck was heavily stacked.

Same thing for Neo’s situation: sure, he’d really want to save Trinity, but the Architect pitched it to him so that he’d be compelled to patch the Matrix. After all, who wants to be responsible for the annihilation of the human race? Esp. when the Architect indicated that Trinity was going to die either way. Neo did make the unexpected choice, though, in this case… unless it wasn’t, and it’s what the Architect wanted all along. Who knows?

he didn’t write the peoples minds, he wrote(and by wrote i mean coding the matrix) the world in which humans live in.
so the choice of making it utopian was never up to him, it was up to the humans.

Like I said, create an ideal setting and you’ll have a utopia… but like Adam and Eve, people do not deal well with perfect serenity and peace. It’s boring. People want to mess things up when they’re too perfect.

[coax]

i understand that, but what exactly is this ‘ideal setting’?
did the architect not copy the world and cities like it were before the machines took over?
is there some type of scenario, like out in the country, that makes humans non-exploring?
it seems to me, no matter how their world was coded, it would be the same outcome, they would do something that was ‘not allowed’ or expected by the architect.
but for some reason the first matrix functioned worse than the next ones, so i’m just wondering what kind of world that would be, one without anything to stimulate the senses?

what is it the humans reacted too?
my point is, it sounds like bs.

[Rubystreak]

*Originally posted by coax *
i understand that, but what exactly is this ‘ideal setting’?
did the architect not copy the world and cities like it were before the machines took over?

I can’t even imagine what would constitute a utopia, so I can’t answer that. What would be all things to all people? I have no idea. It was probably NOT like the world before the machines because that was hardly utopian.

is there some type of scenario, like out in the country, that makes humans non-exploring?

Who said anything about non-exploring? Obviously they WERE exploring, even when the Architect tried to lull them with paradise. I think the idea is that everyone would be at peace, have all their needs fulfilled, never experience pain, grief, suffering, angst, what have you. In other words, a world without conflict. BOOOORING. As I always tell my students, without conflict there is no story.

it seems to me, no matter how their world was coded, it would be the same outcome, they would do something that was ‘not allowed’ or expected by the architect.

Yes, that’s exactly what happened. The first, utopian Matrix was a miserable failure. People don’t like perfection. It’s too… perfect. The human urge is for excitement, conflict, distraction. That’s why so many people create drama in their lives.

but for some reason the first matrix functioned worse than the next ones, so i’m just wondering what kind of world that would be, one without anything to stimulate the senses?

what is it the humans reacted too?

They probably reacted to the utter ennui of perpetual sweetness and light be committing senseless acts of destruction and violence just to stir things up. Probably a lot of them couldn’t accept such a perfect world; we are not wired for peace and quiet. Probably a LOT of people denied the Matrix and saw through it, and without Zion as a pressure valve to absorb all the dissenters, the Matrix crashed. Hence, the Architect made the world much more realistic AND created Zion as a place for people who couldn’t deal with the Matrix. This was a vast improvement, apparently.

my point is, it sounds like bs.

Why? It makes perfect sense to me.

[coax]

Because the machines were made by humans(assumption #1)
and to me it makes sense that the machines “brains” would function i nthe same way as humans, except with a much more knowledge about math, physics and all the other laws that govern nature.
My point is, how could these machines, unless they were alien, make this utopia based simply on, when you get down to it, human and scientific laws?

[Rubystreak]

*Originally posted by coax *
Because the machines were made by humans(assumption #1)
and to me it makes sense that the machines “brains” would function i nthe same way as humans, except with a much more knowledge about math, physics and all the other laws that govern nature.

Whyever would machine brains work the same as human brains? This is an utterly baseless assumption. The Architect admitted that he strove for perfection in all things and that was what caused his first Matrix to fail:

"The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. "

Because he is a machine, he was unable to take into account the “imperfection in every human being,” and the “varying grotesqueries of our nature.” He didn’t realize that humans, unlike himself, might want things to be crazy, painful, or just downright messy and irrational. He was unable to conceive of such a thing, so…

“I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche.”

Thus, he got this other program, who many think is the Oracle, and she helped him to design a Matrix that would appeal to the human psyche, would engage it in a meaningful, believable way-- a way that is inherently imperfect, because HUMANS are inherently imperfect and will reject any Matrix that is not.

My point is, how could these machines, unless they were alien, make this utopia based simply on, when you get down to it, human and scientific laws?

Machines are not bound by human laws. They are alien. The very computer that you’re looking at right now is a foreign mind–it works very differently from yours. Now imagine a computer, unencumbered by morality, superstition, emotions, relationships, and a physical body, but capable of learning and making decisions independently. Of course it would create a sterile utopia; its very mind is a sterile utopia. No, it took a more earthy program, one better able to understand the need for uncertainty, one who could comprehend emotions and irrationality, to design a Matrix that could work.

Basically, I think you’re making assumptions about the machines and how they work that are not warranted based on the movie.

[coax]

No I think you are making assumptions
Because of the way computers and AI work, computers can too, feel.
This is because, and im sure the wachowskis know this, it does not matter whethe cognition is implemented in carbon based chemistry, as in our brains, or in silicone-based electronic systems, the result would be exactly the same.
(source taken from a magazine so i can’t cite it).
so then, by nature. you can’t understand a system from inside that system, and whether or not it’s obvious, the machines are bound to the same system humans are, thoughts and the way the brain works.
now how on earth could he see everyones point of view and create a “perfect and flawless” world?

anyway, i doubt this is a big point, as it’s probably never explained in revolutions anyway, so maybe we can discuss other plotlines instead.

[Rubystreak]

*Originally posted by coax *
No I think you are making assumptions

Sez you.

Because of the way computers and AI work, computers can too, feel.

I have no idea what you mean by this. The Architect did not seem to be a feeling, empathic being. He seemed to be the manifestation of cold logic to me. And without a body, with a nervous system, glands secreting hormones, etc., a world of “feeling” is lost to you.

This is because, and im sure the wachowskis know this, it does not matter whethe cognition is implemented in carbon based chemistry, as in our brains, or in silicone-based electronic systems, the result would be exactly the same.

No way. The human thought process is clouded by emotion. The Architect points it out:

“Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.”

He directly refers to the fact that Neo, as a HUMAN BEING, is not going to make the logical, sane, rational choice because of the chemicals in his brain. The Architect, indeed any computer, does not have to worry about such things unless it’s programmed to simulate human emotions.

so then, by nature. you can’t understand a system from inside that system, and whether or not it’s obvious, the machines are bound to the same system humans are, thoughts and the way the brain works.

I really don’t think the Architect is in the same “system” as Neo. The Architect is not and never has been in the Matrix. He is by necessity outside of it, directing it. He is not having human thoughts because he’s not human. In effect, he is such an advanced AI that he is an alien mind. The fact that he is nencumbered by such things as memory lapses, sentimentality, superstition, prejudice, etc., plus the speed with which his mind works makes him another type of entity altogether. (Even calling it “him” is inaccurate)

now how on earth could he see everyones point of view and create a “perfect and flawless” world?

He couldn’t! He didn’t! To him, it was flawless, a work of art. To humanity, it sucked and they kicked it down. It crashed. It failed. What more do you want here?

And yes, we can be done talking about this if you like. It seems a quixotic argument to me at best.

[coax]

First of all, give me some time to find a cite for that cognition theory.
Second, I never meant the matrix system, I meant the system outside the matrix.
Because humans created the machines, they built them and modeled them on the human mind, how else could they have made a conscious being?

This means that the architect is at his core, a human machine with probably ten thousands times the intelligence and calculation power.
Still it doesn’t help much when he has to understand how humans work.

But this was not my point, my point was maybe the whole utopian idea was too far fetched, even for the wachowskis, and they put it in there on purpose, as a sign that maybe the architect is lying.
but heh, this is all speculation and i was simply airing the possibility.

[Rubystreak]

I think I am officially tired of this conversation, and we’ve probably killed this thread with our back and forth, but I’m still going to have to ask you a few questions because I really half the time have no idea what you’re talking about, and hey, in for a penny, in for a pound.

*Originally posted by coax *
First of all, give me some time to find a cite for that cognition theory.

Knock yourself out. Not sure if it will be relevant to the discussion of a fictional computer, but go for it.

Second, I never meant the matrix system, I meant the system outside the matrix.

What system is that?

Because humans created the machines, they built them and modeled them on the human mind, how else could they have made a conscious being?

Huh? Humans created the ORIGINAL machines. By the time of The Matrix, the machines are making the machines. Humans are totally out of the loop now. The Architect himself was probably made by a machine.

Also, humans are not the only conscious beings, and the human consciousness is not the only possible consciousness. I will also point out that there is a wide variation among human consciousnesses. When and if machines attain consciousness, I am sure it will an alien consciousness to ours. Just because we made 'em doesn’t mean they’re identical to us. Not sure why you insist that they would be. People have kids and have every opportunity in the world to “program” them, yet still parents regularly think of their own human children as inexplicable, alien minds. Now throw in a silicon brain with no body, and tell me that’s going to be just like us.

This means that the architect is at his core, a human machine with probably ten thousands times the intelligence and calculation power.

What in the blue hell is a “human machine” and why do you think The Architect is one? If anything, he’s a machine’s machine. He himself would probably be the first to admit it, and I think he did as much in his talk with Neo.

Still it doesn’t help much when he has to understand how humans work.

OK, I’ve made this same point at least three times now, and this is the last time: he DOESN’T understand how humans work. That is why he got The Oracle involved! She was the one who understood the human psyche. The Architect was too much a machine’s machine to EVER be able to create a workable human society on his own. That was one of the MAIN POINTS he was making to Neo.

But this was not my point, my point was maybe the whole utopian idea was too far fetched, even for the wachowskis, and they put it in there on purpose, as a sign that maybe the architect is lying.

Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes, the utopia idea was farfetched. IIt didn’t work, remember. It was a fabulous disaster. It was crap. It was junk. He had to redo it several times and get help in order to make it work. Utopias are fairy tales. They never work. Leave it to a machine to think it would work because it is unable to fathom the need for conflict and imperfection. I’m not sure why you continue to reassert that a utopia isn’t possible as a reason to think the Architect was lying. The Architect himself agrees with you. He seems a bit disgusted that this is so, but he accepts it.

but heh, this is all speculation and i was simply airing the possibility.

He may well be lying, but not for the reasons you’re giving.

[coax]

Ok, let’s see here.
Humans create machines based on their own cognitive system >
machines adapt their cognitive system > you cannot understand a system from inside a system > to create this ‘alien’ consciousness you speak of, it seems to me they have to change their whole grid of information, they would have to change themselves into something completely different.
kinda like humans trying to turn into plutonians(people that come from pluto :P)
it’s just not going to work no matter how smart you are, the machines are bound by the human works of the brain.

but anyway, i’m going in loops and you are correct, so, anything else to add to anything else about the movie, that could perhaps inject some new material into this discussion?