Matrix Reloaded plot discussion (Spoilers Galore, NO spoiler boxes!!)

Cafe Society
401

Larry,

You do make some powerful arguments there, I must admit, if for no other reason than you certainly remember the specifics of the scene better than I do.

I am definitely going to have to watch the movie again!

My ideas are a “theory”, and like any good scientist… :slight_smile: … I am open to opposing/differing theories that rule mine out. I just don’t happen to agree with your theory! I guess we can agree to disagree?

I’m on my way out the door right now, so I don’t have the time to respond to your ideas, point by point. (Maybe later or tomorrow if I get the chance. Busy weekend.)

But, quickly here, I still say that there are two strong reasons indicating that the Neo’s on the screen are NOT previous Ones:

(1) The fact, if true, mentioned by Shy Guy, that all the Neos headed for the left door. Obviously “our” present Neo is the first one to make that choice. Therefore, if it’s true that the Neo’s on the screen all head for the left door then they represent something else besides the actions/reactions of previous Ones. Period.

(2) The fact that Morpheus never told Neo that he was exactly the same as the previous One/Neo. Like I said before, I would think that if he were an exact duplicate of all the previous One’s, then Morpheus would have said something to that effect. Morpheus, in all of his efforts to convince Neo that he was the One, never mentioned that his name and appearance are identical to the previous One… which certainly would have been POWERFUL arguments.

Therefore, assuming Morpheus wasn’t lying or selectively omitting certain information or didn’t know himself… all possibilities… then the previous Ones are NOT being shown on the monitors. Period.
I am certainly open to any other suggestions, theories. Perhaps your points at the least rule out MY THEORY about the monitors showing Neo’s possible emotional reactions. Maybe someone else has a better theory than either of us?!

But for whatever reason… call it stubbornness, stupidity, arrogance, rudeness, whatever you want… :smiley: … I still don’t believe the theory that the monitors represent previous Ones. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

(( And, by the way, I LOVE the fact that this movie has so many people discussing and debating possibilities and ideas and theories. It has been a long time since a “pop culture” sci-fi film has caused this kind of debate. I love the internet and I love fandom for stuff like this. Cool movie! I hope the third one is just as evocative. ))

402

Oh, and here’s a sample from the Sophia of Jesus Christ which is related to that idea, and which I think the W. brothers payed particular attention to,

The “robbers” in this case, are the supernatural entities conspiring to keep human beings “under guard” in a constraining reality. The “Drop from Sophia” is her smuggled gift to the Matrix’ inhabitants of the latent ability to see past the illusory nature of their world. The “defect of the female,” or “Error”, is the anomaly which the Architect can’t quiet avoid-- because the Oracle has manipulated him from the beginning to make things that way. He excepts her “compromise” of allowing the possibility of choice, and thinks of Neo as an errand-boy who’s just going to clear the slate for him. He doesn’t recognize that Neo is sent by the Oracle to work in conjunction with the “error”. not as a solution to it. The Oracle will be “justified in regard to that defect” in the sense that it will be revealed not to be a “defect” at all, but rather a Cunning Plan. When he wakes up, with the ability to transfer his knowledge and special abilities to the masses still enslaved in the Matrix, the Architect is going to find himself in the middle of a freakin’ Revolution.

(Previews)

Hey, we’re on the same page there! I, for one, don’t really think that a story that contains so many paradoxes and intangibles can be objectively defined to everyone’s satisfaction, but it’s a lot of fun to speculate and argue about. Earlier I said that there are strong arguments for either viewpoint about what the monitors represent. I might be more accurate to say that there are strong arguments against either viewpoint. The scene appears to contradict itself, so it becomes necessary for the individual viewer to make a sort of Hobson’s choice about which scenario is more likely.

That being said, let’s have at it! :wink:

There’s nothing to indicate that Morpheus would have any idea about the specifics of the earlier One – in the first movie, he simply says:

It was over a hundred years ago, and it’s not too hard to imagine that the first to be freed in each iteration would be much more concerned about learning how to survive outside the Matrix than recording an accurate history, keeping photographic records, etc. They’d probably be a lot more interested in cultivating that tasty single-celled protein they depend on for survival. If Morpheus knew the precedent One’s name, you’d think he’d mention it. It could be lost in the prehistory of Zion.

That syllogism is a little wiggly-- one of your premises is uncertain. It is not obvious that this is the first time Neo has chosen the left-hand door. The Architect says that the “five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one.” It’s entirely possible that the previous ones were given a similar choice, only in the earlier instances the left-hand door represented the choice to try to re-enter the Matrix to try to save the huddled masses in Zion, and the Architect was simply jerking his chain, telling him what he needed to hear to go through that door. Let the poor sleeping bastards in the Matrix burn, in order to save the already awakened. It sounds pretty callous for a Saviour-type fella, but then that other guy did say “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” When the Architect says that hope is “your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness,” he may be admitting to using that weakness to get Neo to do what he actually wanted to do-- Choose the left door. He could be lying through his teeth. It may have worked five times before-- who knows?

Incidentally, Gnosticism, (like a lot of other belief systems,) attributes special signicance to the Left and Right hand paths. As it happens, this gnostic dogma conforms very nicely to the choice that Neo has to make – whether by accident or design is a little hard to say. For what it’s worth:

If the Brothers W. decided to remain faithful to this dogma, taking the left hand path would naturally lead back to the Matrix-- the illusory material world, which is destined to be utterly destroyed. Very tenuous, that, but I figured I’d offer it up because the quote seems, in other regards, to have some relevance to the plot. “The world created to train the animal substance by means of the outward senses.” Yeah.

He may have tricked Neo into doing his bidding 5 times before, but 6 is the keeper, because according to the Gnostics, the Demiurge created just six Aeons.

The Six Aeons thing, if I’m not mistaken, originally comes from Simon Magus. “Aeon” has been variously interpreted to mean “Space,” “Time,” “Angelic Being,” or all three simultaneously. Of course, it is sometimes spelled “Eon,” which makes for another convenient anagram.

Ay-yah! Speaking of Aeons, it seems like one since I started this post. I’d better pop up for a little air.

For me, this is a lot of fun, because after running out of Philip K. Dick to read, I read a lot of the Gnostic materials that influenced much of his writing… Those cats were way-out, and their system makes for much more interesting Sci-Fi than anything L. Ron Hubbard ever scribbled. The Wachowski Bros have done a great job of adapting the stuff into a science fiction context.

403

I just realized I grabbed the first “Six Aeons” quote handy, and it isn’t as clear as it could be. I thought I’d better try to supply some more transparent quotes on that:

Ecch. Anyway, those quotes ought to illustrate my point a little better-- there’s an established tradition, popular with the gnostics, that six physical worlds will pass away, leaving about a seventh, non-physical world, in which the folks who have received Gnosis will live happily-ever-after.

404

Wow! 400 replies for a thread I started! Have…to…refrain…from…gloating.

I just remembered something that’s been bothering me since the first Matrix. If six hundred years ago or so, The matrix was launched and started a simulation beginning in the year 1999, then how come it’s STILL 1999 after all this time? Even allowing for crashes every 100 years (which, according to the architect, have not occured thanks to the Ones), It can’t still be 1999. So what’s the deal with that? Food for thought…

405

Just wanted to add that after a second viewing, I noticed Hitler is visible on one of the screens in the upper left a few seconds before Los Bushes show up.

406

Whoa! I read all nine pages in one sitting. Do I get a prize?

Nothing really to add to the plot discussion. A few somewhat random thoughts:

-Rave in the Cave is right! Unfortunately from that scene on whenever someone said “the system” it took a great deal of restraint not to say “is down.”
-I like nipples as much as the next guy, but sitting next to my mother during that scene was a bit weird. I like soft core porn as much as the next guy, but I really hope there is a point to all of it.
-This movie has rekindled my love of Carrie-Anne Moss. May I never speak ill of her again.
-Monica Bellucci -insert cheap “reloaded” joke here-.
-Can you dig it? Heh-heh. 4 pages and 4 hours later its still funny.

407

Monica Bellucci was in Dracula. She is listed as Dracula’s Bride, but you might remember her as one of the three demons or as I called them, his Harpies’ Ladies. So she has experience with the whole mistress of the night thing.

Hmm, I might re-watch that awful movie just for her. Well her and her fellow brides. And Winoa.

link
Yeesh, I’m tired.

408

There’s no reason to assume that the Matrix begins in 1999. For all we know, it could have begun in 1900. In the first movie, Smith says the Matrix simulates the height of human technological achievement. Perhaps he is referring to the entire 20th century.

409

Nah, I don’t buy that. Even if it had started in 1900, It would be the year 2500 by now. and You won’t make me believe they started it in 1400, That hardly qualifies as the “height of human technological achievement”.

410

But if they reboot the Matrix every hundred years (when a new One shows up) then it can repeat the 1900 - 2000 cycle indefinately.

411

Random thought about Smith uploading himself into the ‘real world’.

It seemed odd/unbelievable to me at first that that could happen. I mean, a person’s brain is incredibly complex - the chemical reactions and nerve networks that dictate someone’s unique behavior are physically hardwired to an extent. It seemed unbelievable that you could just overwrite someone’s brain like that.

But then it occured to me that brain-writing technology is a given in the Matrix universe. Those programs they use to learn - they jack information directly into the brain. So, since they’ve shown the technology to be able to ‘write’ directly to the brain, the fact that Smith took over a person isn’t indicative of Zion being real or not - because it could work either way.

412

OK… I read almost this whole thread… started to get a headache… and just decided I was going to post my thoughts on each topic in a hit and run type fashion. I know I’m going to miss stuff, but this thread jumps around like a butterfly going from flower to flower.

Zion-- Is it a matrix within the matrix. Honestly, I don’t know and I don’t think we’re supposed to know. I think we’re supposed to think that it might be. Nearly everybody I talk to about this thinks now that Zion is another Matrix. I don’t know that I fully buy it yet, but it is certainly possible.

Neo-- Neo, I believe to be human and not a program. I’ll put it this way, the Matrix has a built in system that allows people to reject the Matrix if they choose to. The Matrix then eventually picks a human to send their patch into that will help reboot the Matrix to let it be more effective. Neo happens to be that guy, and the additional code allows him to behave, within the matrix, more like a program. This is what allows him to manipulate the Matrix at his will.

Now this last part is theory-- built into that program the Matrix gives Neo a capacity to feel love on a higher level. Thus allowing the Matrix to somewhat control the choice of the one in the end. Always choosing to save humanity because they feel obligated by their love for humanity to save it. Neo was completely different because the one he loved was not within the Matrix when he left, but outside of it. So when he left there was not somebody still within the Matrix he would want to save. Nor did he need to refocus his “love” on the people. Keep in mind when those people came to Neo in Zion-- Neo was a little annoyed by it. I imagine previous ones were probably better at this. Neo’s line to Trinity was, “I need you.” that is to say he could give or take these people. Something previous ones would not have done.

Obviously it is love that leads him to his choice in the Architects room. I just think that it is something that he was given to control the outcome that ended up backfiring.

Merovingian- I don’t think he was a previous one. He was a program who the Matrix attempted to delete and he chose to live on. His speech is very interesting the 2nd time around. He very clearly knows the big picture and the purpose of The One. This is what he tries to tell them, they do not know why they are there; they are only there because they were sent. They are being led through a maze by the nose and they don’t even know it, and worst of all they only think they know why. He also references predecessors to Neo. I’m not entirely sure why he kidnapped the keymaker. But I think he clearly knows that he has a role in the machines purpose of getting The One to the source. I think its possible that he just likes f**king with 'em.

Either way, there is nothing said in this movie-- nor is there anything he says that would indicate that he was a previous one. The only thing close is when Persephone says, “He used to be like you.” He used to be like you. Not, he used to be you. Or he used to have the same goals as you, or the same job as you or anything. Merely that he was like Neo. As she is a “vampire of emotions”, I imagine she is referring to his emotional state. He used to be passionate and caring towards her and she wants to feel that again.

Agent Smith-- I just wanted to say he’s my favorite bad guy in a long time. I didn’t even really care that the 100 Smith’s fight scene was superficial and unnecessary. I just like the Smith character.

I’m not exactly sure how people missed the Smith upload into the real world. He clearly took over that one guys body, and clearly was uploaded into the phone, just like they showed the other guy being uploaded. What did you think happened?

The Architect (The room)- First of all, the screens around the room were alternate choices Neo could have made. Either conciously or subconciously those are options Neo could choose. Notice Neo looks about the room at all the screens before he says, “The problem is choice.” as he realizes what the screens are. The Bro’s even drive this point home by focusing in on the screen that represents the choice Neo actually makes and bring us into that screen. Keep in mind Neo is the first not to choose to reboot the Matrix, but all the other “Neo’s” do the same as him. If they were all previous ones, they would all be heading the opposite direction. Plus there’s a heck of a lot more than 5 screens and 5 different responses. So how could they represent only 5 previous one’s?

Also, and I posted this to the other Matrix thread-- His choice given him by the architect was not a save trinity or everybody type of choice. Although in Neo’s head saving Trinity is what caused him to make the decision he did. His options were these:

A> Reboot the matrix-- save 16 women and 7 men and repopulate Zion.

B> Do not reboot the Matrix-- Zion will be destroyed, the matrix will fail to load and all humanity will be destroyed.

The architect is very clear that Trinity will die no matter what. But Neo chose to hope, because the love he was given, instead of being for people, was for Trinity. So his goal was not to have humanity to live, but for him to continue living with Trinity. Otherwise he saw no point.

Also, this is posted in the other thread-- But here is my whacky Matrix theory.

I think the counsellor and the council were the previous survivors. The counsellor, possibly even being the previous One. They clearly want to help Morpheus at all costs. Neo mentions there are no young people on the council. The Counselor drones on about the symbiotic relationship between man and machine. Indicating he realizes that the machines know they need us. There is also no evidence to indicate that a “one” happens every 100 years. The Architect only says that he prefers counting time between Ones, but does not indicate how long time is between ones. So it is likely an anomoly that happens at anytime. (IE within hours of the last reload or 1000 years later)

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I’m pretty sure at this point that they are previous survivors.

Anyway, thats all I remember wanting to say for now. I’ll probably remember more later.

413

Screeme,

GREAT post. I think I agree with every single thing you say!
:smiley:

414

What was the gender ratio on the council? A friend of mine came up with a similar theory to Screeme’s, and I’ve been trying to disprove it, but I can’t remember whether the Council contained 23 people (16 female, 7 male). My impression was that it was both smaller and more male than that, but it could be skewed by the fact that I want to remember that. Obviously, the only three memorable Council members were Haman, the council president, and Cornel West.

By the way, although I didn’t get any particular malevolent feeling off of him, why is Counsellor Haman named for the bad guy in the book of Esther, the grand vizier who wanted to wipe out all of the Jews in Persia, aka Babylon, and was only prevented by many fortunate turns of events? The name would seem to imply that Haman is secretly working for the machines to destroy Zion (the Jews?), what with his speech about how people and machines really need each other, perhaps implying that the machines shouldn’t be overthrown. Or maybe Haman is actually a machine construct within the Zion-matrix (if you ascribe to that theory, which I do), like the agents are within the main Matrix. I suppose he and the other council members did make it easier for Neo and co. to get back into the Matrix, something their military commander would have prevented but which would be necessary from the machines’ perspective for the rebooting.

Somehow, this connects to the name of the Neb (Nebuchadnezzar was about three kings (and one invasion/overthrow of government) before Ahosaurus, the king under whom Haman served and plotted), but I’m not having any particularly bright ideas on that one at the moment.

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Did you notice that THE MEROVINGIAN is an anagram of GRIVN: I AM THE ONE? :wink:

Even if the Merovingian is a previous One, then he and Persephone cannot be analagous to Neo and Trinity. Because the Architect said this was the first time that the One had fallen in love. I think it would be long after he’s “retired” as the One that he got with Persephone.

416

Oh, sorry if this has been mentioned, but this came to mind.

When Neo visits the Oracle, after she dumps the news on him, as he’s leaving, she says “here, have a cookie. I promise that by the time you’re done, you’ll feel right as rain” or something like that.

Well, the second movie established that ‘code’ could be delivered to people through food. If the Architect and Oracle (or either) are manipulating Neo to fulfill his purpose, something could’ve been in that cookie.

Just a thought.

417

Ah, good point. Also the candy she gave him, which looked suspiciously like a red pill.

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Hi,

I thought I’d change the subject a bit, here… assuming anyone else wants to follow up on these comments/observations/questions…

I haven’t heard too many people discussing Agent Smith’s role in “The Matrix Reloaded”, other than discussing the part of the film where he ‘downloaded’ part of himself – a copy? – into that human who appears at the end of the film lying next to Neo.

Until I started thinking more deeply about the story… and until it occurred to me that we’ve really only seen the first half of what is essentially a four-hour-plus story, “The Matrix Reloaded” and “Matrix Revolutions”… I thought that Smith’s role in “Reloaded” was kind of weak.

It seemed, while I was watching the film, that he tended to show up whenever the plot required a cool fight. To a casual viewer, it could seem like he served very little purpose in the story and, worse, that he seemed to just show up with very little explanation. He always seemed to know where Neo was: Neo is chatting with the Oracle, and he shows up for a big fight. Neo, Morpheus and the Keymaker are trying to get to the Core, and once again Smith shows up for a fight. Both times, once the fight is over, he just seems to disappear.

On the surface, this could seem like weak writing. And I must admit that, while I was watching the film, this was what I thought. It wasn’t until nearly the end of the film, when many of the seemingly dangling plot threads started to come together, and the stunning revelations of the Architect, that I was ‘won over’ by the story. In retrospect, it seems like “The Matrix” and “Matrix Reloaded” are intelligent enough and densely plotted enough that there MUST BE A REASON, A LOGIC, to what Smith is up to.

This is what we know (and I am sure I am leaving stuff out since I’ve only seen “Reloaded” once and it’s been a few months since I saw the original “Matrix”):

(1) Agent Smith has been subtly different from the other Agents since the beginning of the first film. He seems to be more the take charge type, commanding the other agents. Also, he has obviously been altered by his time inside the matrix. He tells the captured Morpheus in the first film that he “hates” humans and the smell they give off. He tells Morpheus that he wants to find Zion so that he can “leave this place”.

(2) After Neo disrupts his programming (or whatever it is he does at the end of the first film), I would assume that Smith was destined for deletion. This is a part of the plot I’m a little hazy on, since I can’t remember exactly what he told Neo in “Reloaded”, but it seems his will alone prevented him from being deleted. He is now a rogue program.

(3) He now seems to have the ability to duplicate himself, like a virus. I believe that “Reloaded” does NOT make it clear whether he has to have a physical host person/program to alter, or if he can simply replicate himself at will. (I tend to think the former.)

(4) One of these duplicates seems to be able to take over the mind of a human inside the matrix, and then be sent back to the “real world”. (I’m not even going to discuss here whether or not this is ACTUALLY the real world as some seem to believe, or whether this is in fact just another layer of the matrix. In regards to Agent Smith, I believe that this a moot point. Obviously, at least during the time of the first “Matrix”, Smith did NOT know where Zion is. Now he has found a way to get there.)

(5) Smith SEEMS to be able to locate Neo almost by will when Neo is inside the matrix. (Maybe he read the script?) PERHAPS he has the ability to hone in on Neo, or perhaps there are now so many duplicate Smiths running around that one of them is BOUND to run into Neo if Neo is in the matrix long enough! Of the three or four times that Neo enters the matrix in “Reloaded”, the only time that Smith does NOT encounter him is the Merovignian/freeway sequence.

(6) During the fights between Smith and Neo/Morpheus, Smith seems to be trying to do something to them. He starts to put his hand into their chests, and they start to turn silver/grey near the area of his hand. Whether he is trying to use their bodies as hosts to duplicate himself again, or if he is trying to download himself into their minds, or if he is up to something else, is not made clear.

(7) The Smith who has somehow downloaded himself into the mind of the human approaches Neo & co. near the beginning of the film with a knife in his hand. It SEEMS like his intention is to kill Neo, but perhaps he is up to something else. This ‘Smith’ cuts himself in the hand, behind his back, while he is approaching the group. (This has been discussed elsewhere in this topic, and several different theories have been extended as to just WHY he cuts himself.)

(8) This ‘Smith’ in the “real world” disappears – screentime – until the end of the film, when it is revealed that this ‘Smith’ has survived a massacre of human ships who were sent to delay the sentinels which are boring towards Zion. I believe that someone in the film says that he is the ONLY survivor of this massacre… begging the question, was it dumb luck that this was the only surviving human or did the sentinels somehow spare him???

Like I said, there are probably details I missed, questions I have not asked, ideas that I haven’t even begun to approach here. But I think that there are some pretty serious questions about just WHAT Smith is up to.

Also, is it possible that he is still working to serve the purpose of the Architect and the machines, like the Oracle, despite being a ‘rogue program’? Or does he have his own agenda? What does he hope to accomplish by downloading himself into the “real world”? What was he trying to do to Neo & Morpheus? And just WHY DOES HE TALK THAT WAY!!!

:smiley:

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Must post before I lose track of this… I’m adding to my post count! NOOOOOOOOO!

This just popped into my head… could Agent Smith & buddy agents be the reason that the Matrix needs to be reloaded? I mean, if an agent can take over a body (and Smith can duplicate himself over and over and over again) then that has to be causing some damage to the Matrix somewhere. What happens to all the people that die under Agent form? It’s something that’s been bugging me since the first movie, since it sure seemed like agents were popping up everywhere and not really caring too much about what happened to the people they pirated. So perhaps every so often an Agent goes wild and starts replicating, virus-like, all over, screwing with the Matrix’s code here and there. That seems like it could cause a needed reload.
This also fits well with Smith’s statement that both Neo and Smith have taken away parts of each other and given each other abilities - Smith has become a virus that’s damaging the Matrix, and Neo, by entering the right-hand door in the Source, can destroy Smith (and himself) by using the part of Smith that was placed inside Neo. All the Smiths are gone, and everything’s back to normal. No more damage.

Okay, maybe it was a wacko theory. But there sure are a lot of them here. Oh, and I’m in the ‘Zion is real’ camp, just because I wanna believe that it’s real. No evidence or anything… just faith.

420

This is a great discussion. I’ve read this whole thread and I have something for your consideration that I don’t believe has been addressed yet.

It takes place in the scene where Agent Smith takes over Bane and presumably gains access to Zion.

The two humans are running for the phone exit. The first guy has something which appears to be an envelope. Whatever it is, it is important and the reason the two are in the Matrix at that point. Bane tells the other guy to “go first” and he grabs the phone. It suggests that they must get the first guy out with whatever he is carrying.

I dont get it! Since when can you take things from the Matrix back with you? :confused: