Matrix Reloaded plot discussion (Spoilers Galore, NO spoiler boxes!!)

Cafe Society
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Finally got around to seeing the movie last night, and I’ve been off and off since then going through this thread. Definitely gonna have to see Reloaded a second time (or more) – an urge I did not have for the first movie.

On to the question: When Neo is taken to see the Oracle, she’s sitting on a park bench feeding . . . crows?? What’s up with that? The W Bros. had to do it on purpose; you can find pigeons a dime-a-dozen, but I imagine rent-a-crow runs into a little money. As this site points out, crows are laden with symbolism, most of it bad.

So, what’s the take of folks here on Oracle and the crows? I’m thinking the messenger symbolism, mostly. The Oracle is delivering Neo a message from . . . someone higher?

DD

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Quoth the Raven, “Nevermore.”

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Just a WAG, but the Greek flavour of the sun-god/saviour archetype, Apollo, kept a crow.

That might explain why the Oracle would have a special affinity for them.
I have some more obscure ideas about jungian psychology and alchemy, but they’re even more of a reach, so I’ll keep mum. :wink:

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I like your explaination for this. I haven’t been able to think of anything better. What exactly would the Merovingian have to gain if Neo didn’t reach the Keymaker? Or is he just another player in the Architect’s plot?

The humans need to be fighting some kind of resistance for the machines to keep up the charade of their struggle. They keep the humans in Zion busy while also alerting them to the appearance of the One (when someone starts beating up agents, you’ve got your One).

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Both as a filtering system and to keep up the story of the struggle. By “filtering system” I mean that they know the real One can defeat agents, so it doesn’t matter if they send agents after any potential One. Since they’re only interested in the real One getting to the core, the agents keep non-One resistance members from screwing it up by making it too far.

I’m guessing.

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I’m sorry, DesertDog, I just realized that the bit about Apollo was already in the link you posted. (I closed it pretty quick the first time when the midi kicked in.)

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Phones = modems, like the connection between two systems (Matrix/Zion) - but not to the outside world. (That’s how I feel.)

I think of the Matrix as running on a “neat and clean” corproate machine, and Zion as running on a hacker’s computer where things are messy, but they work.

I imagine Neo will figure out how to multiply himself at some stage, I think he and Smith have a lot in common by now.

FOOD.
I’m glad others have remembered that Neo pocketed the candy instead of eating it. I hope that gets re-incorporated.

Nobody eats food without a physical change happening - be it internal (e.g. the chocolate cake), or external - doors have a new backing.
Leastaways, not that I have noticed.

Okay - so the Merovingian drank wine and went away for a bit.

But the Oracle eats her candy and leaves by a door.
Seraph eats his noodles, fights Neo briefly and they leave - by a door.

I don’t remember the last time that anyone else ate food - although Neo was given plenty of offerings.

They don’t even snack, or drink.
What up with that? Or is eating just too unimportant to bother with?

Imagine if only those who ate food were the real people in this situation!

Oracle, Seraph, Merovingian, Neo. (And the Chocolate Cake girl.)

Bring back the white rabbit, I say!

One more thing - I would be delighted if halfway through the third movie, the screen just went THAT shade of blue… and stopped there.
Highly unlikely, and guaranteed to annoy everyone else! :smiley:
Either that, or just a sudden blackness with a little white flare in the centre that dies away…
:slight_smile:

And there’s the glorious Dallas escape route - Mr Anderson wakes up and realises it was all a bad dream… to the sound of a ringing phone.

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Or maybe that was Dynasty - I forget which soap it was. Yeah, Dynasty perhaps.) :wink:

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The One has a couple of fundamental properties, including the emotional attachment. All the previous Ones had a Superman complex, and would have jumped at the opportunity to “save humanity” without thinking. Their emotional response would have been to choose the door on the Right. Neo’s attachment was to Trinity specifically, and since he couldn’t save her by the door on the Right, his emotional response was the door on the Left. I think that the Architect gets a big kick out of this. He seems almost gleeful, while simultaneously scornful, that a human is willing to prove his imperfection by making an illogical choice. In addition to whatever happens, he reaffirms his superiority because of this. I love that. :slight_smile:

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If he basically counting up, trying to get a grip (I knew there were Two matrixes, but three? Four? Five previous?!) it works nicely.

Actually, he wanted the codes to sneak in. With Morpheus’ knowledge the machines could attack Zion.

Which brings me to a not-so-small point: The agent programs in the matrix do not seem to be aware of the previous Ones. They seem to take it as their goal that they are really intended to kill off Zion and the hackers (and I mean do that now), not merely provide pressure on the Zion-ers until the One comes along. This makes a certain amount of sense. If you want to make everything seem real, there’s no point in even telling your own subordinates the truth. They don’t, after all, need to know.

Secondly, I want to weigh in against the dual-Matrix theory. That is to say, I think that the Wachowskis are still holding their cards and what’s really going on won’t be revealed until the next movie. I think that Bane/Smith will upload himself much improved, to fight the ultimate Neo (since I saw the trailer…)

The dual-matrix theory doesn’t feel right. The visual style that the the real world is presented in is nothing like the Matrix at all. The SFX Neo used to stop the Sentinals just doesn’t come across as a matrix-binding effect. I think the W. Bros would have used something more flashy had that been their intent (although I’m sure they guessed some people would be fooled). Also, a Keanu Reeves interview supports my idea. The Sentinals looked like they just shorted out.

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SPOILERS FROM “ENTER THE MATRIX”!!! POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILERS FOR REVOLUTIONS****
Actually, i dont think that matrix within a matrix thing is right. In Enter The Matrix which is supposed to be part of the official story line and stuff, Niobe visits the Oracle just after Neo has entered and exited the Source. The Oracle is talking about the future to Niobe and how it is up to her to help Neo. She says Neo has now been to the Source and has now seperated his mind from his body, and that he is in a world in-between the matrix and the real world. She says that Trinity will save him, and it is up to Niobe if she wants to help Trinity and Neo.

I think this conversation is very interesting because after seeing the movie i though the orcale was in on it all the whole time and against the humans. But the Oracle seems to be still wanting to help the humans, even after Neo has reached the source. Her goal wasn’t to get Neo to go to the source to restart the matrix like the architect wanted, but as she said, to get him to understand the choices he makes, and to end up ‘seperating his mind from the body’ as she says he did.

More evidence for a good Oracle is that she says in ETM, is that she was threated by Merovingian for helping Neo and had to change ‘program shells’, which explains why she looks different to Niobe than she previously did. In the third movie they have had to use another actress for the Orcale as the orginal one died just after filiming of reloaded, so the oracle looks different. She also rambles on to Seraph at one point about there are too many choices and that Neo might not succed. ANd She also says to Niobe that she can see from the Beginning to the end, and Niobe asks, is the world going to end? and the oracle says something like you cant see past the end. And Niobe doesn’t believe it but the oracle says the world will end if they fail. So there seems to be a bit of ambiguity about free will in the matrix if the oracle is saying there are too many choices but at the same time saying she knows all.

ANyway what im trying to say is that the Oracle is good and obviously wants to work with the humans to get free, and that Neo hasn’t woken up out of a third matrix, but more has gone back into from the real world and is stuck inbetween the matrix and the zion real world. So has Agent Smith and this explains why it seems from the trailer there is a lot of fighting between them because they are both stuck in this semi-matrix.

Im not very good at writing this so hope it makes sense and anyone who has ETM can quote me better on the conversations between the oracle and niobe and ghost.
Now i have to go and study! Damn exams :frowning:

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btw I had it as spoilers for revolutions because im not sure how much the spoiers in ETM give it away for revolutions, so don’t think that im quoting my thoughts as spoilers!
:slight_smile:

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Insaneous,

Sadly, none of that actually prooves that the Oracle is “good”. All of that may just be a further sceme of the AI’s to get the humans to do what they want.

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Yes but since most of this proof occured after Neo had entered the Source, the AI’s had already acheived in sending him there. What more control is she supposed to do if Neo was supposed to reboot the matrix. It is only through her wisdom that Neo chooses to save Trinity and not reboot the matrix. For example, during the conversation with the Oracle, she asks Neo if he sees Trinity die in his dream. He says no, and in fact we dont see her die. Now in the source, the achitect tells him that Trinity dies, but Neo doesn’t believe him because he didn’t see her die, and this raises hope in him. He has understood his dreams and his choice like the oracle asked him too.
Also, as i said before, we hear a conversation between Seraph and the Oracle by themselves in ETM. She discusses with him the problem of Neo not succeding and that there is the problem of everybody having their own choices getting in the way. If one fails they all fail. Now since this is between two AI’s there is no way she is decieving, because there are no humans around to listen. My guess is that she may be the mother of the matrix, but that doesn’t stop her from becoming a rogue. She sent him on his mission to the Source so eventually he would learn and understand his choices, and then finally (as she says he does in ETM) seperate his mind and his body (which happens at the end).
And yes she’s obviously trying to get the humans to do what she wants, but that doesn’t mean its the same wants that the architect has or Agent Smith has or anyone else.

Possible Spoiler
If anyone has read the Matrix Online preview at IGN, you will see that it states it is the next step in the story, and occurs almost right after the triology, and is in the matrix. This probably means that the matrix is still around after the third movie since the action is set in a ‘sprawling urban metropolis’. The story of this one is also written by the same people from the movies, so im guessing its official story line as well.

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Ok, saw the movie opening weekend, so hopefully I still have all the details correct, but here goes…

In the world of the Matrix, the Architect is God. The Oracle helped create a more efficient Matrix that humans would accept by providing them with that choice. This was afforded to humans through the use of Zion. Those who did not accept the Matrix awoke in Zion. Zion is the real world, not another Matrix.

In my theory, the Oracle is one of the “Good Guys”. Sometime during the creation of the first few Matrixes, the Oracle began to feel compassion and empathy for the human race and devised a method to help them gain freedom when the time was right. The Prophecy, The One, Zion… all of this was presented to the Architect as a safety mechanism for the Matrix. With all those things in place, he would be able to maintain constant control of his greatest possible enemy, the awakened humans. Logically, they should be the only things he truly has to worry about, all computer programs should logically strive to maintain the Matrix.

However, this whole safety that the Oracle convinced the Architect to institute was actually devised by her as a way to allow the humans an exit. It worked in the last few iterations of the Matrix, but this time there is something extra…Trinity. There has been much speculation as to what her name symbolizes, but I think it is the Trinity of the Oracle, Trinity, and God.

Agent Smith is still learning the extent of his powers, so he bowls ahead like a bull in a china shop. We see that he can overwrite a persons mind in the real world (Bane). Who’s to say that the Oracle hasn’t done this to Trinity in some fashions, subtly shaping and influencing Neo? This would make God the Father, the Oracle the Holy Spirit, and Trinity her embodiment on earth, or the Son. (also, God working through her would make the Oracles name even more appropriate)

The Oracle betraying the Architect actually fits in nicely with the Christian origins of Satan. Gods most trusted and loyal Angel betrays him and launches a heavenly war, losing and being banished to Hell. In this version, Satan(the computers) have won a round. Now the story of the rise of God, or Gods creations, actually mirrors Satans origins in a fashion.

Anyway, hope this made sense…

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I am not convinced that saving trinity was the right move. It will probably turn out to be that way, but if the Architect REALLLY wanted Neo to choose the right door, why even tell him about Trinity’s delema? He basically baited Neo.

Also, just because Seraph is an AI doesn’t mean he is on the same side as all AI. The Oracle could easily be duping him as well for her own reasons (to keep him from screwing up the main plan).

Heck, the whole 5 previous “Ones” could be a lie too. Lets say you are running the matrix, and some guy comes along and is totally screwing it up. He’s about to bring down the whole thing. And he makes it to the place where he can shut it down. What do you do? As a smart AI, you make a huge lie. You tell him that door number one (the door to shutting down the matrix) is actually the door you WANT him to take. And then you tell him the left door (the door that gets him out of your hair long enough to wipe out Zion) is the door to his dying beloved. You tell him that he’s been doing what you want all along, and that Zion is dead anyway. The silly human (who the AI already know hates being controlled) decided to be a rebel and choose the “wrong” door, which is actually the door you want him to take.

Zion is destroyed, Neo is out of your hair, and you do the happy AI dance.

Then in 3, the AI find out they need Neo, because nasty Agent Smith is replicating himself everywhere, and is going to bring down the matrix. Only Neo can stop it. So you trick him into doing what you want again. Silly humans.

I know this is unlikely, because American audiences hate for the good guys to lose.

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This is the other thing I think is important. The Architect cannot, as you suggest, swap the doors and trick Neo. If he could do that, then he wouldn’t need Neo at all. Or, he could just clonk him over the head and throw him through. The One must be able to make a choice; there must be free will involved. Otherwise, there’s no point to the anomaly at all. The One’s choice is inherent in the programming of the Matrix; if he’s not able to make it, then (by some DiffEq that’s way over our heads) the Matrix is inviable.

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S’ok. I was going to mention it specifically in the OP, but got in a hurry. I also found it interesting that the Oracle of Delphi also had crows associated with her. It may be that’s what they picked up on.

DD

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Once again, that assumes that they “need” Neo. If it’s all a lie in order to further control him, then all of that is moot.

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sghoul, I’m interested. Could you go into more detail as to your theory? What’s the point of the One if he’s under their control?