Matrix: Revolutions (WARNING! Spoilers.)

I’m sorry you didn’t like it. The whole series of movies can be seen as an attempt by the Oracle to create a stable matrix. The Architect created the matrix, the current incarnation is the sixth one. Each one before this one has failed and had to be rebooted. So, as attempt to learn why the previous matrixes failed the Oracle was created as a non-logical program to attempt to create a stable matrix.

So, the movies can be seen as the Oracles attempt to stabilize the matrix. The Architect is coming to her and saying that it appears you succeeded, but you ucceeded in a way I don’t think was likely to succeed.

I’m curious why you didn’t like the movie. Bad acting? Bad dialogue? Can you explain why. Thanks in advance.

I guess the big reason I felt so let down by the third, is that it seemed to forget about all the subplots and focus on the main plot…which IMO it did a pretty crappy job on. The SFX were amazing, dialouge poor. I did not really find any “deeper meaning” in this one either. Everything was so obvious. In Reloaded I watched it a couple of times and browsed the boards and found that I had missed several things, so far with this movie I really have not. I believed they developed the characters extremely well through the first two and wasted alot of potential. Also I was dissapointed that they really didn’t elaborate with the merovingian(sp?), persephone plotline, or the seraph plotline…both looked promising. All in all I was dissapointed in the direction the movie went in Revolutions, perhaps my dissapointed stems from the fact that I was expecting something entirely different.

Some of my ideas:

First, after Neo dies and Deus ex Machina says “It is finished”, my first thought was “weren’t those Jesus’s last words?” I know it depends on which gospel you read, but doesn’t he say that in one of them?

I like how they actually addressed the fact that guns needed reloading (both on the ships and in those big walker things), but there’s no way the Kid, or any of the runners, would be able to push those carts around all of the debris that was on the dock.

I don’t see why Zion has to be “another Matrix”. In the long Reloaded thread, my logic was this: Smith sez part of Neo entered him and changed him, so he could be free. If part of Neo is in Smith, why can’t part of Smith be in Neo? The Agents could control the Sentinels (in the first movie, when they realize Cypher has failed, Smith orders “find them and destroy them” referencing them as the people aboard the ship). Thus, couldn’t Neo somehow activate a bit of the Agent programming to stop the sentinels? It works even better because Smith has entered a human, so there would be that connection back to the Matrix. I also recently read a theory that said this: from the footage in the Architect’s room, it appears that he (the Architect) has always known that Neo would be “the One.” Thus, when little baby Neo was first grown, the machines implanted some extra hardware (wireless modems, perhaps?) that would allow him to connect to the Matrix without being jacked in. Maybe they had a low bandwidth, which would explain why Neo could only get as far as the train station without being really jacked in. Perhaps the candy the Oracle gave him in Reloaded contained the software to activate the extra hardware.

Speaking of Bane, Neo was Mr. Densy McDense when he couldn’t realize Bane was possessed by Smith. Props to the actor for mimicing Weaving’s inflections so well. I saw Neo’s blinding as a way to separate him from his physical senses. Just as in the first Matrix, Neo is told to “free his mind” and see the Matrix as a programming contruct, Neo needed to lose his physical sight in order to be able to recognize the data he got from the machines. Would he have been able to guide them so well if his eyes were intact? This fits in with myths like that of Odin, who gave an eye to drink from the well of wisdom (Tiresias, mentioned upthread, was awarded his gift of prophecy after he was blinded. To make things short–he briefly lived life as a woman. Hera and Zeus were arguing over who got the most pleasure out of sex–men or women. Zeus said women, Hera said men. They asked Tiresias, because he’s the only one who would know. He sided with Zeus. Hera was pissed off, so she blinded him. But because he sided with him, Zeus gave him the gift of prophecy).

Speaking of the Oracle and food, I noticed this: in the first Matrix, she bakes cookies and gives him one (that she implies will induce forgetfulness. Or maybe he’s just dense)… In the second, she gives him a piece of candy. In the third, she’s mixing up cookie dough (with the intention to have them done before he arrives), but he gets there before she’s ready. She also offers him candy, and he refuses. Maybe this is what causes her to believe–she can see that Neo doesn’t need (or want) what assistance she can give him.

After watching the Animatrix (especially both parts of “The Second Renaissance” and the last one on the DVD) and the old man councillor’s speech in Reloaded, I thought Revolutions would really hammer home the idea that humans and machines needed each other. I guess the machines needed a human to defeat one of their programs, but it wasn’t what I expected.

I saw it last night, and after reading tons of crappy reviews, it was much better than I thought it would be. My big beef is that each movie seems to have a totally different tone than the other two. There doesn’t seem to be a big feeling that ties them all together.

I think people are being a little hard on Neo for not seeing Smith within Bane. Within the Matrix, Neo doesn’t see Smith as Hugo Weaving in dark glasses (at least, not anymore). He sees him as little cascading green letters.

…As I recall, a newspaper clipping reading something like “‘Morpheus’ eludes authorities at Heathrow” was briefly visible in Matrix #1.

And if I may say so…even with all the weird, existential stuff that didn’t make sense, the legions of Battle-Mechs made it all worthwhile. (There are entirely too few Battle-Mech legions in American cinema today) :wink:

And—pardon me if someone’s already brought this up—when the Oracle a

…As I recall, a newspaper clipping reading something like “‘Morpheus’ eludes authorities at Heathrow” was briefly visible in Matrix #1.

And if I may say so…even with all the weird, existential stuff that didn’t make sense, the legions of Battle-Mechs made it all worthwhile. (There are entirely too few Battle-Mech legions in American cinema today) :wink:

And—pardon me if someone’s already brought this up—when the Oracle and Architect mentioned “the ones who wanted to be free” being let free, were they talking about Matrix’ed-humans, rogue programs like the Indian couple, or both?

And if the humans could go free if allowed, did that mean that they were going to tell the humans in the Matrix the truth about their reality, or just let the Zionites recruit people as they always had?

And when Neo “saw” Smith inside Bane, how come he could still see smith’s glasses? Do ray-bans have an electronic “aura,” too? :smiley: :Pnd Archetect mentioned “the ones who wanted to be free” being let free, were they talking about Matrix’ed-humans, rogue programs like the Indian couple, or both?

And if the humans could go free if allowed, did that mean that they were going to tell the humans in the Matrix the truth about their reality, or just let the Zionites recruit people as they always had?

And when Neo “saw” Smith inside Bane, how come he could still see smith’s glasses? Do ray-bans have an electronic “aura,” too? :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:

good coding ranchoth

when Smith gets exploded at the end, does this mean all the humans return to being their former selves in the rebooted matrix? or are they all dead? is anybody left to bother having a matrix? I’d have quite liked this to be explained. when the oracle meets the architect at the end, there doesnt seem to be anybody about.
any explanations?

Well, paulberserker I think that the people in the Matrix were written over and gone. The programs (the Oracle, Sati, Seraph) were written over, but still there. At the moment the Matrix was re-booted, I don’t think any humans were alive/there. When/how they do get there, I’m not sure - but I’m sure they will be there. All the people are still there in their pods in the real world, and they all need an illusion of a life to keep them going (to give the machines energy, theoretically). I know, it doesn’t really answer your question, and may even raise some more questions, but that’s just what I believe. YMMV.

I still have many more questions, but in general, I enjoyed the third movie, and the series as a whole. I do want to see Revolutions again, to hopefully answer some of my questions.

One thing I would like to point out (that a friend of mine pointed out to me) is that the scene where Neo is taken away at the end sort of reminded both of us of King Arthur being taken away, and he will be called when needed again. So, on top of the religious overtones, some mythical ones too …

Oh, and another thing. Someone about two pages ago asked why they didn’t have EMP’s in Zion. One thing I thought of was that since the 250,000 people in Zion weren’t in Zion the last time the machines attacked, they would have no clue that they would need an EMP - why would a machine/sentinel be in Zion, that they’d need an EMP. I know others have mentioned that if anyone from the previous cycle was there, you’d think they might mention that an EMP might be useful, but I guess we’re to infer that all of Zion is new.

Oh, and speaking of Zion - remember when Tank/Dozer (can’t remember which) said they were “free born children of Zion”, that implies that the current incarnation of Zion is at least ~30 years old. I really don’t know what conclusion to take from that, but it just occured to me, so I wanted to remind people.

If they couldn’t conceive of a machine getting to Zion, then what are all the mechs for? No excavating tools, those.

I thought they explained the lack of an EMP in the movie. Setting off an EMP in the loading dock would render their defenses useless. That’s fine if you can guarantee catching all 250,000 sentinals with one blast, but as the movie showed, they were perfectly able to come in waves. When the Mjolnir finally arrived and set off their EMP, all it did was buy a few minutes.

In short, EMPs are great while outside, but a pretty stupid thing to set off inside.

Barry

No kidding.

I mean, feel free to criticize the movie, folks, but if you’re going to complain about supposed holes in the plot you’d better understand the plot in the first place.

I hope I didn’t overlook someone else giving the obvious answer to this question somewhere along the way…

They forked.

Here is a few thoughts that me and my brother wondered about…

Morpheus clearly states that “for 100 years” something something… Anyways, they’ve been fighting the machines for a good 100 years or more.
2 things come to mind:

  • How did the machines choose a good time to attack Zion? They obviously outnumbered Zion, they had any time to go do the killing.
  • The Matrix timeline. At what year did the Matrix start in for all the occupants? 1800? 1900? Or is it the year 1999 over and over and over again?

Has noone got it yet? The War is over, the cycle has ended, Neo/the one saved zion and made peace with the MAchines.

Humans have free will and choice again (hence why Neo says in response to Smith asking him why does he keep fighting…“because I chosse to!”)

The Matrix did not reset again as everyone thinks. It simply changed (hence the black cat Deja Vu scene like in the first Matrix) The reason it changed was because Smith had outgrown his original program and completely destroyed and taken over the Matrix (“Like waht I’ve done with the place…?”) When neo gets the machines to plug him in to attempt to defeat Smith when he enters the Matrix here we see a dark, derelict matrix overcome by multiple smiths! These were formally the humans in the Matrix and thats why when Neo defeats Smith ther Matrix doenst rest it just becomes what it was before smith became a computer virus.

The reason the machines don’t harnass the solar energy above the clouds is because they can’t. hence why when Neo and trinity are heading to the Machine city they fly up through the clouds to avoid the sentinal attack. When they do this we see the sentinals can’t follow and are destroyed or simply fall back. they can’t function up there because they’re sole source of power is from the harvested humans. Other wise the machines wouldn’t need to grow humans and wouldn’t have needed to create a matrix if they could have simply harnessed the Sun.

Neo relaised that the only way he could save zion and defeat smith was to make peace with the machines by bartering with them. Both Smith and the machines l=knew that Smith h ad become a vrus and was about to destroy (well he already had) the matrix and then probably have a go at he machines after defeating The One. The only one that could stop smith and save both worlds was Neo, and the only way he could do that was to let smith assimilate him wherby both sides of the equation cancelled each other out and both Smith and Neo where destroyed both in the real world and the Matrix. I reckon that when Smith assimilated The oracle, a part of her was still able to control Smith too and I think that when The oracle said to Neo “Everything that has a beginning has an end,” that was a precursor to Neo when he heard smith say exactly the same thing in the final battle scene. I believe that was The Oracle’s way of helping Neo relaise that he had to End what had started by letting Smith take him over thereby letting him fulfill his purpose too - afterall Smiths purpose was the opposites of The Ones - to destroy him and the Matrix and The Machines!

So, zion;s saved, the Matrix is intact and humans have the choice and they have free will whether to stay in the Matrix or leave for the real world - they can choose reality or simulation! There is no need for any other version of the Matrix because the only reason it reset was after the machines had constantly destroyed Zion. Neo saved Zion and made peace and created human freewill and choice which was acceptable to the Machines finally. After all thats all they wanted originally before the war broke out between humans and machines (Animatrix).

Just my thoughts anyway. Good film but din’t go deep enough for me. i think the brothers severely edited or compromised their original plot/story just so the general public/masses could have a fair go at understanding it!

Another possible idea:

The Oracle was in fact a renegade - she was “The Mother” of the Matrix as was “The Architect” the Father. This coluld mean that they where in it together and in fact I believe they where. I think she had a diffenece of opinion with her machine husband and where “The Architect” was based on “balancing out equations” the Oracle as based on choice and freewill which is what she was struggling to achieve. I also believe that she maybe created Neo/The One as a program to achieve what she wanted in direct opposition to what the Architect wanted to maintain. Hence this maybe is where the whole myth or idea of “The One” stemmed from - The Oracle - she was the one who created the concept and this is where Morpheus clearly got it from!
But I do think that “The Architect” and "The Oracle created the Matrix but they had differences of opinion - one wanted order and conformity and the other freedom, freewill and choice and Neo helped the Oracle achieve what she wanted “I want the same thing as you do…”

Small spoilers contained herein, but I don’t know how to hide them.

I thought the third movie was completely stupid. Whereas the first and second movies totally messed with our minds, (or seemed to be doing so anyway,) the third movie was completely straightforward and boring. Very dissappointing.

But just to defend a couple of points…

The machines keep people as batteries not just as a power source but also because the machines want to keep humanity around. They would actually, in a wierd way, like to redeem humanity. (Or at least, factions among them would like to–or if they are all part of one super-consciousness, then a part of that consciousness would like to.) (I’m getting this from the “Animatrix.”)

This also explains the peace at the end. We can trust them to keep their promise because peace is actually what the machines have wanted all along.

So that kind of stuff didn’t bother me.

What did bother me was the bad, tacky dialogue, and the complete lack of interesting twists and/or metaphysical puzzles. They didn’t even follow up on the puzzles brought up and/or hinted at in the second movie! They just dropped everything interesting and focussed on “action-packed” type stuff. Dumb dumb dumb.

Neo finds out there have been many Zions before his in the second movie. This is a big deal! There should be some follow-up to this! But what do we find in the third movie? Two, count them, two lines of dialogue.

Neo: Why didn’t you tell me?
Oracle: You weren’t ready to know.

And that’s IT!!

We find hints in the second movie that the merovingian and his wife had something important to do with big events which occured prior to our heroes’ time. Did his wife begin as a human? Did he begin as a human? (Why was his wife so attracted to Neo? Because she reminds her of what the Merovingian was like at one time? Why is he named the Merovingian? Because in some sense he carries messianic blood within him? Because in some sense he is a claimant to the throne of God’s kingdom–Zion?)

But no follow-up whatsoever to these hints!!??

Grrr

-FrL

Tried to edit this into my previous post but couldn’t for some reason.

Another thing that ticked me off was at the climax of the climactic battle. Smith asks, “why do you keep it up?”

Dramatic pause. Dramatic camera angle. Neo’s dramatic face. And our climactic, dramatic, mind-blowing, meaningful and significant answer?

“Because I choose to.”

Gah! What a completely stupid unthoughtful non-answer!

No one ever does anything just because they “choose” to. That is not an answer to the question! It’s not even a meaningful non-answer. If it means anything, it means Neo (and the general humanity which he represents) have horribly confused stubborness with “free choice”. And that’s just silly.

-mS

But this is the point! - The oracle was fighting for humans to once again have freewill and choice - she was going against what the Architect was doing with his Matrix base on equations where everything was balanced - this just prooves how connected Neo and The oracle actually where! They after all wanted the same thing! The Architect wanted balance and basically was a mathematical machine trying to balance everything, he didn’t understand choice! The oracle was the opposite and was all about for choosing and having choice - either do it or don’t - freewill!

So when Neo replies “because I choose too,” thats the point which Smith does not understand. he can’t comprehend Humans fighting for some believe or ideal! If you listen to his outblast at Neo before he whacks him again prior to asking neo why he continues to fight, its very clear that Smith believes all human emotions are simply fantasies and constructs to keep humans from the reality that existence is futile - that there is no point and nothing to live or hope for.

Basically the Matrix…

To everyone who has not seen Revolutions yet, dont listen to the neh sayers. If you liked the first one you will like this one as well.

After having done seen it, Reloaded was just one long set up for it. There may be one or two dialouge\fight scene that doesn’t seem to fit, but I loved it. The battle for Zion was a roller coaster ride.

Spoliers ahead
Someone asked why didn’t they have an EMP in the dock. The answer is simple. As seen in the movie when Linx hit the EMP in a last ditch effort to save Zion, it also knocked out Zions defenses. Now, it wouldnt be a big deal if there were just a few squiddies, but one EMP wouldnt be able to knock out all the squiddies and Zion would be left completly defenseless.

“If you liked the first one you will like this one as well.”

I think there are alot of posts on this very thread which constitute convincing counter-evidence to your claim…

As I pointed out–the appeal of the first two movies (for many of us, at least,) was the complete mind-trip contained within them.

But the third movie lacks any hint of that element. It’s a straightforward shoot-em-up punch-em-out type action movie. It’s plain stupid is what it is…

grr

-mS

The irony is that the first movie didn’t cover any new ground at all. The second and third movies at least attempted to make a new statement about the outcome of our current situation.

The first movie relied on an idea that isn’t only famous, it’s commonly recreated by reasonably clever children with time to think. Frankly, I’m beginning to become just a little annoyed with everyone who was so shocked at the idea that their world might just be a computer simulation – where have you been for the past hundred years or so?!