That’s not quite what I meant. I meant that your “theory” (note that it is not a theory in the scientific sense) cannot be proven false, because no matter what happens, you have come up with some (equally unproovable) reason why it fits with the “theory”. In the original thread, you even invented a ridiculous reason why false predictions were really true by suggesting that time travelers altered the future after you had your vision.
To be technical, your “theory” is just a belief, really. It’s not a theory at all. And, to be frank, your belief is ridiculous.
You are, of course, free to go around postulating that the moon is really made of green cheese, and that your dreams are actually movies being played in the theater of your mind by gremlins while you sleep. Just don’t expect anyone to take you seriously.
You are right, of course. The two main camps of thought in this world…well, America at least, and Great Debates in particular…are Science and Christianity. I’ve watched the arguments between the two camps (esp. Creationism v. Evolution) and, I believe you will agree with me here, never the twain shall meet.
On the other hand, BOTH camps are firmly against the 3rd minority, which is parascience – premonitions, visions, psychic advisors, and the like. Predictions like mine about the Stanley Cup game are inherently non-testable by Scientific Method (which, in a way, is itself a sort of religion) because you are right, THEY CANNOT BE TESTED. Because we are stuck in a world where time moved only forward, and because there are billions upon billions of factors that affect the outcome, it is impossible to build another full-scale model of Earth, repeat the last 4.5 billion years, just to see if the NJ Devils really do take the cup in each exactly similar scenario. (Indeed, sometimes I wonder if this entire universe is really part of a science experient by a world far, far beyond the Event Horizon, and we are all in a petri dish, with ultra-advanced scientists taking notes on the results of their experiments. Hell, you could take it the other way too…maybe the very atoms that form matter have their own worlds, and somewhere on a proton in my left arm, there is a flame war/debate taking place on what is the equivalent of a “Straight Dope Message Board” in that particular matrix.)
pepperlandgirl – I’m turning 36 next month, though I feel much older…
But it WAS proven false! I predicted a Ducks victory, and I was wrong. And as I said before, “Matrix Theory” is still a work in progress. As for the vision itself, clearly, it was mis-interpreted. And for the sake of keeping this thread on SOME type of rational level, let’s forget about my “the powers that be changed the future” idea. For the time being, anyway.
Could we please refrain from the “ridiculous” and “stupid” comments? I know it’s ok to attack peoples IDEAS here, and that’s all that you were doing, but it doesn’t help progress the debate in any way. If you really do think it’s all a bunch of hooey, please don’t bother to contribute, because such comments are non-productive. (I say this respectfully, of course.)
Oh, and I do want to explain…there were A LOT of factors in play yesterday, things that were building to a head very quickly, not the least of which was this: I had a phone conv. with my mother (who is a Born-Again Christian) about what happened vis-a-vis the Ducks game, the Pitting, and all that, and ultimately it devolved into a VERY heated argument that boiled down to her INSISTING that I get down on my knees RIGHT NOW and pray to Jesus, and I said something to the effect of “I will NEVER, EVER accept Jesus, and if that sends me to hell, so be it,” and in the end, we both hung up very, very angry with each other. And then I read the Pit Thread (for the first time that night) saw manny’s fake apology (which at first I thought was for real, until I read the whole thing) and went fucking ballistic. So that’s something behind the scenes that had a direct affect on my attitude in the Pit Thread. Just giving some background, not really trying to explain away or find excuses for anyything.
Well, they can be tested, quite easily in fact: before the season begins, write down the winner of the Stanley Cup, put it in an envelope and mail it to a lawyer with instructions to open it after the Stanley Cup game. If you correctly predicted the winner through para-scientific means, a lot of people would pay you a lot of attention.
This is the basic problem with “parascience”, though. Somehow, it never succeeds at making long-shot predictions, at providing clear answers, at nailing something down in a way that would be impossible without parascience. Instead, we get a huge mishmash of visions and vague prophecies and fuzzy images that are all about the interpretation. This is what Joe Random meant by saying your theory is ‘tautological’–you’ve constructed an hypothesis that permits all contradictions, that is perfectly self-contained, and that is effectively meaningless, since anything that would disprove your philosophy of the matrix is incorporated into the theory as part of the illusion.
Do you understand that, without falsifiability, your theory is little more than spinning castles out of clouds?
I can assure you that the scientific method is not at all similiar to a religion (unless you define “religion” as “something people believe to be accurate or true”). The Scientific method is all about discovering things that are true about the shared experience we call reality. Things tested by the scientific method can be tested by anyone, anywhere, and the results will be valid. There is no subjectiveness involved. If results can be interpreted in many different ways, then they aren’t very useful.
Yes, they can. They just fail the test. All you have to do is keep track of all your “visions” and record which were correct and which weren’t. If your percentage of correctness is greater than that of someone making educated guesses, then there is something to your claims. Otherwise, the visions are not a valid instance of seeing the future.
The answer is 42.
The bottom line is that the scientific method is useful for analyzing anything that claims to predict or affect reality. Someone claims to be able to read people’s minds and see which card they picked? Fine. Get some people to pick cards while standing behind a screen so that the “psychic” can’t see them to gather clues that way. Have one lab assistant record which cards are picked (also standing behind a screen), and another record the “psychic’s” predictions. Repeat the same experiment with people who do not claim to be psychic. If the “psychics” get more correct predictions that the average Joe, then there is something to their claim. Otherwise, they’re full of bologna.
James Randi is offering $1 million to anyone who can demonstrate any paranormal ability under controlled conditions. So far, no one has even passed preliminary tests.
So you would rather silence all people who believe that your “theory” hold no merit? Comments like the one I made are necessary in any discussion of this nature, because you must admit to the possibility that your “theory” could be just a bunch of hooey. By removing all voices which disagree with your entire premise, you would effectively force the debate to be bounded by certain assumptions that may be false. You can never reach the truth that way.
Joe Random – I have issues with James Randi. I believe he is as much of a quack as the charlatans he exposes, to say nothing of being a media whore.
But what I meant by “defying scientific theory”, is that while Sci.Theory relies on testable, repeatable hypotheses, certain elements of parascience (incl. “Matrix Theory”) are not only unrepeatable, but they are affected by Chaos, which skewes the result. What I mean is, two expieriments with exactly the same conditions, will NOT result in the same result every time, and yet, BOTH results are true. (Does that make sense? I’m having trouble expressing what I mean here.)
I really should read up on Chaos Theory more, because I get the notion that would explain a lot…I did try reading up on John Nash’s “Game Theory” (since I see LOTS of parallels between my life and Nash’s, at least the Hollywoodized movie version), and “Game” is a significant keyword in my theories. Unfortuantely, since it deals with economics, I couldn’t get a hold on what he was talking about. (I got a C- in Econ101, lol.)
Everything is affected by chaos. Everything at the quantum level is ruled by probability. This doesn’t effect the resulst of things discovered by the scientific method, so parascience should be no different.
The fact that experiments on parascience don’t work is pretty damning evidence that parascience doesn’t exist. If something is untestable, and you never know how it’s going to work next, or if it’s even going to work at all, then how is it any different from random guessing?
In all seriousness, of what use could a system that is no better than random guessing actually be? That sounds pretty worthless to me.
Once again, either you read this backwards, or I spoke it backwards, the net result being your interpretation of what I said (or meant to say) was 100% oppostive of what I was trying to commicate. “Getting Things Backwards” – or “Reversal”, as I call it, was MONSTER of a factor last night…I think I already explained how I thought Game 7 was taking place in Anaheim instead of NJ, the colors were wrong, and other things like my reference to 9/11, which (at the time) I was convinced would be received with tears and sympathy, and turn the tide against manny. Clearly the exact opposite happened.
I should also explain that I my perception of disastrous events, including 9/11, is a lot different than most people’s. Sure, I was affected, like everyone else. But I got “over it” much more quickly than most. I’m still sad – but not, you know, devastated. Clearly, many people (indeed, the vast majority, I would assume) are STILL devastated. My social connections being what they are, I have a difficult time understanding it – that is to say, why certain events involving death can roll off my back quickly, while others seem mired in it. And I’m not making much progress on that issue, despite years of therapy & soul-searching.
Well, here is where we cross over into the “religious” part of Matrix Theory. (Remember, my primary goal is to merge the two camps into a single, unified theory.) Here is what I think:
Parascientific events – visions, past lives, and like – are not only untestable, since you cannot repeat them, but DO NOT APPLY to the fundamental rules of science!! Even mainstream religions like Christianity heed to this belief – that G-d can directly intervene in the physical world, and make “adjustments” that violate the basic laws of science. “Miracles”, for instance. Even modern-day Christians believe this.
As it applies to my theory, I believe that someday, in the future, if in fact what I believe is actually true, human beings will be able to violate the so-called “Laws” of Physics (which, if I understand it right, science says CANNOT be broken), and affect things like gravity, inertia, hyperspace travel, teleportation, time travel, and the like. Pure science fiction, right? Well, remember that there are stories and movies from decades past, which played around with these futuristic beliefs. “A Voyage to the Moon”, for instance. Who the hell would have thought that we would REALLY walk on the moon one day? Pure fantasy!!! Yet…it happened (though not in any way like the movie predicted.)
And that guy (what was his name again? I’m terrible with names) who discovered “germs”. He was ridiculed by his peers and ultimately died in a mental hospital. Now, we know he was right all along. I am NOT using this as “proof”…only that I see certain parallels to him, as I do with John Nash. It’s been discussed here, over and over again, that science DOES NOT CARE what we puny humans think of it. Remember Galileo? He nearly was executed for saying the earth revolved around the sun, not the other way around. He recanted, of course, to save his life (I think Cecil himself said, “Science is not worth dying for.”)
What I mean is, if “Matrix Theory” is inded a true aspect of the universe, a part of science that mankind has not yet discovered, time will prove me right. If I am wrong, nobody will even remember that KGS ever existed, unless the SDMB board of 2203 still archives posts from 200 years prior. Of course, all of us will be long dead and gone by then…
No facts to debate here.
Nothing to base a factual answer on for General Questions.
You claim that your “Matrix” has nothing to do with the movie, so I can’t put it in Cafe Society.
You already have a BBQ Pit thread on this subject.
I know! Since this thread seems to be about dream interpretation, I’ll move it to MPSIMS.
SimonX – at first I thought you were yet another wolf, but yes, I have given much thought to NDE’s. I don’t have time to read the site right now, but I will. (It’s kind of OT for this topic, anyway.) But for what it’s worth, I find NDE’s very interesting, because I am becoming more and more convinced that what “heaven” is, what happens when you die, is that once your life has expired, your mind FREEZES IN TIME, and whatever the last thought in your head was, is what you see for the rest of eternity. That’s why so many NDE’s are strikingly similar – the white light, seeing your family, etc. Of course, nobody with an NDE actually DIED, and all discussions of parascience aside, we have yet to have CONCLUSIVE PROOF that anyone who has died has contacted the living. (And while I do believe that “true” psychics still exist in the 21st Century, despite being VERY hard to locate with all the charlatans dominating the market, I do think that “contacting the dead” through channeling and seances is a bunch of, well, hooey. In fact, it’s pure Black Magic.) But like I said, that’s just a theory, and it’s not something I spend a lot of time thinking about.
Czarcasm – phew! At first read, I thought you were locking this thread (yet again). MPSIMS it is, then.
Truly, I am relieved. When I opened this thread (which I still think applies to GD, but hey, whatever) I knew I was taking a BIG risk – not a life-threatening one, of course, but since I value the SDMB and it’s members’ opinions, I was fearful that it would once again lead to disaster. Thankfully, despite a few initial “wolves” baring their fangs, it’s worked out just fine so far. I was truly, deeply worried.
All right, I’ll give it one more shot. As I said over in the Pit, to me, a religion is more than simply having visions. To repeat what I said earlier, if you’re going to call your beliefs a religion and expect me to take it seriously, here’s what I want to see:
I am attempting to take you seriously and give you the benefit of the doubt, but I need more than “I have visions.” I have deja vu flashes. In and of themselves, who knows what they are. So far, I’ve yet to find a practical use for the things. To be honest, some of what you’ve written sounds like ideas I played with when I was younger, and I think it can still be a fun topic to bullshit over with the right group of friends. I can even remember one SF short story written years ago which played with similar ideas, though I’m afraid I can’t remember the title and author.
I’m afraid I’ve also got to correct you on a couple of points of error. Not all Christians would describe themselves as “Born again”, at least, not in the way your mother does so. Also many Christians, including me and others on this board do not see evolution or science as being at odds with Christianity. I am sorry that your experiences with Christians have been so unfortunate. For what little it’s worth, trying to change that is one of my moral obligations.