Does virtual stranger have a Pit thread yet?
no, but i have a feeling i will shortly.
they may not have agreed with what i have to say, but those brave men defended to their deaths my right to say it.
for all you neurotics luxuriating in WWII nostalgia there’s an interesting article in the NYT about the greatest generation (free registration required):
http://college2.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2001/04/22/843199.xml
choice quotes:
…
Paul Fussell, a war historian and himself a World War II veteran, said of the current crop of war movies and literature, “They have the same status to me as the romances of Barbara Cartland.” (Mr. Bay, asked to describe the style of his movie, said, “It’s got an epic scope, but there’s a romantic spirit to it.”)
“We don’t have any war to luxuriate in at the moment,” Mr. Fussell said. “It’s an immense national neurosis.”
Another historian and veteran of the war years, Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr., has pointed out how much profiteering there was on the home front during the war. "This wasn’t `the greatest generation,’ " he said in an interview in The New York Times Book Review last November. “The greatest generation is the generation that declared independence and formulated the Constitution.”
Books like Mr. Brokaw’s or “Flags of Our Fathers” do not dwell on the powerful isolationist sentiment in America before Pearl Harbor. Robert E. Sherwood, in his Pulitzer Prize-winning biography, “Roosevelt and Hopkins,” published in 1948, cites some sobering statistics. In 1940, only 2.5 percent of Americans wanted to go to war against Nazi Germany, 37.5 percent thought America should stay out but sell to either side “on a cash-and-carry basis” and 29.9 percent thought we shouldn’t even do that…
…The vicarious kicks that the not-so-great generations are getting from “W.W. II — the Big One” aren’t so surprising under the circumstances. But the romanticization of the most terrible conflict in human history must seem perverse to those who were in it. “Let me get this straight,” a grizzled old marine might bellow in disbelief.
“You kids want to wear camouflage and dog-tag jewelry?”
virtual stranger: Please try to understand. This is not a thread for debating patriotism, the causes of the war, the actions of the participating governments, or any other debate.
This is a thread for remembering the men and women who fought in that war. It is a memorial.
Please read that last paragraph again. Some people may have no problem having sex in a church or pissing on The Wall of the Vietnam Memorial, but some things just aren’t done. You have the right to fell as you please, but please respect the feelings of others. This thread is a memorial, just as the USS Arizona is a memorial. Or The Wall. Or the altar of a church. Have some respect.
You are perfectly free to start another thread if you have issues to debate. You are perfectly free to start a thread titled, “The May 5th Thread [insert your verb]s”.
If you don’t have anything to contribute to this thread and you continue to posts the things you do, this is what will happen: Many, many people will have very ill feelings toward you. This thread, which has inspired so many people to remember those who served and which has inspired so many people to reach out to the veterans they know, will be closed. And once a thread is closed, it is eventually forgotten. This thread does not deserve to be forgotten. Your name will be considered to be “virtual leper”. If you are a jerk, you may be banned.
If you are a thinking, caring, human being, think about what you are doing. Think of all of the people you will be hurting if your actions cause this thread to be closed.
I, for one, would prefer if you did not reply to this. Just walk away and let this memorial serve its purpose.
Have some respect.
I usually don’t do things this way because most people here know that when I speak, it’s with the assumption that I’m a moderator and give my words the proper weight. But just to be sure …
[Moderator hat on]
Virtual Stranger … no one is questioning your right to say the things you’re posting; only the specific thread that you’re posting them in. This thread was intended to be a salute to patriotism, not a debate on the merits of it, and I won’t allow it to be hijacked in that direction. If you have a discussion to contribute to or start on the subject, post a thread in Great Debates. But leave this thread be.
Thank you.
[Moderator hat off … oh, damn, it’s stuck.]
[Edited by Eutychus55 on 05-26-2001 at 07:43 PM]
When I was a kid in the early 80’s my family travelled through France by car one summer and happened to be in the Normandy area on June 6th (anniversary of D-day, obviously)
I forget the name of the small town, I’m sure I could dig it up, but there was a modest steel bridge across a river there. The Germans in retreating decided to bomb it by air to stall the Allied advance. I don’t know all the strategic details, but for a day or two this small bridge was very important. It was the only quick way for tanks to advance farther into France in any kind of a timely fashion. If the bridge were blown, the allies would have to detour/rebuild and waste a critical amount of time, giving the Germans a chance to regroup/reinforce/outflank/etc…
A small contingent of Canadian, British and American soldiers was given the task of digging in and guarding the bridge. They could keep any ground forces away easily, but couldn’t do much about a bomber. Well to make a long story short, the bomber came, made one pass, dropped a bomb (i’m not sure why it only dropped one) and to the horror of the soldiers the bomb hit the bridge dead on, only it didn’t explode. The bomber was flying too low and the bomb hit tail first and skidded into the river.
To this day you can still see the horseshoe-shaped mark in the middle of the bridge where the bomb hit and every year the surviving soldiers gather there. They were in their 50’s and 60’s when I saw them (i’m sure time has taken its toll on their ranks by now) and were a very fun bunch of people.
Does anyone happen to know the details on this town and bridge?
See, I’m not an ogre, although I think you flatter me with the sex in churches idea. I can honestly say that it never occurred to me, although I must admit the idea has distinct possibilities, mind you. I’ll never look at a church the same way again 
Much better, virtual stranger. That’s what this thread is about. Thanks.
We pause to remember those who died
With so much courage
So much pride.
They’ll never come back,
But memories endure
To remindus of freedom: fragile, pure.
We’re worthy of their sacrifice
If we pause each day
Not just the last Monday in May.
Tripler
I don’t know who wrote it, but it’s in my wallet under my ID.
Coldfire, thank you so much for starting this thread.
I grew up an “Army Brat”. That’s the term we use in Canada (and I think the US as well) for children whose parents are in the military.
I had an uncle who served in the Netherlands during WWII. He was a farm boy of 17 when he went overseas. He didn’t come home.
His brother also went at a young age, at 18. He was one of the liberators of a death camp and I am ashamed to say that I do not remember the name of it. He came back at 20 years old, his hair gone completely white. To the day that he died, he would not speak of the atrocities that he witnessed.
Canadians are told quite often that they are treated like gold in Netherlands. My step-father witnessed this first hand when he was posted to France and travelled throughout Europe. He was actually asked to leave a bar (pub) when the proprietor suspected he was American! When dad showed him his I.D. card he was allowed in, welcomed with open arms, and given the royal treatment.
Very early on in life I was taught to be patriotic. I was also taught to always always respect the men who fought to keep Canada free, and who were sent to Europe and the Pacific. In Canada we have Remembrance Day on November 11 for a national day of mourning and remembrance for those who have died in service of their country.
When I grew older, I tended to gravitate toward men in the military to date. The underlying sense of decency that men (and women as well) must have to want to serve their country and keep it free for the future generations appealed to me. As a result, I spent three years with a wonderful man who instilled pride in country, duty, and service to others in my son.
Please remember that there are some Canadians who remember the people that were suffering in Europe and elsewhere in the world. I completely accept the fact that members of my family have died and likely in the future will die because others in the world need our help. I feel deeply for the families of those cleared out of the Jewish Ghettoes and into death camps. I feel for the people whose businesses were taken over, property seized, all rights taken from and then killed. I feel for the families that lost members. I feel ashamed that we could not do more, that we could not have stopped the atrocities before they started.
Ginger
I’m sorry to hear about your uncle. If you don’t mind me asking, do you know where he fought, and possibly where he died? Is he burried here, or in Canada?
And don’t be ashamed of anything - your family is one to be proud of!
He was one of the few that was shipped home for burial.
The very few casualties my family has had does not in any way balance with the losses of the millions during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and even the Gulf wars. But we are proud to know that we have done our part.
Ginger
Thank you for sharing your stories, and giving us somthing to reflect on.
Just to share my family’s story. I had a great-uncle who was with the American army in Europe…if I remember correctly, he served on the Italian front, as a member of the MP (military police). Near the end of 1944, he, like so many others, knew the war was going to be over soon. He also knew that, when the war ended, the infantry would go home, and the MPs would, in all likelihood, stay in Europe…they would be the last to leave. Therefore, he requested, and was granted, a transfer to the infantry. A week later, he was shot by a German sniper in the back of the head and killed.
This is my first post. I only this last week found this thread and I thought it would be good to tell this story:
My family is from Southern Italy. It’s October or November of 1943 in the mountains. My grandfather was one of 12 men taken for execution by the Germans for doing something they didn’t like. Execution was the Nazis way of making the occupied zones behave, I suppose. The men were all put to work digging a big hole and when the hole was done, they were forced to strip naked, lined up and shot. My grandfather was the last in line when an American plane came in and strafed the area, killing “i Tedeschi”. The only reason my grandfather survived was because he jumped into the mass grave with the other corpses when the plane came over. When the plane was gone, he hi-tailed it outta there buck naked in cold weather and nearly froze to death, but he survived. He later told my mother the story which is how I got it since he died before I was born. So that’s the story. My nonno owed his life to some unknown American pilot who killed his executioners while he hid inside his grave that he helped dig.
Thank you Coldfire for this thread.
I’m glad to see you didn’t make all the Dutch heroes. Lots of them turned their heads when a Jewish neighbour was taken away. Thank goodness for the ones who resisted, some in a small way.
And Thank You; Allied forces for liberating our country. We will never forget.
For all of you who had family in the allies: Bless You.
*I’m realy pleased to see our Prime Minister was one of the first to offer * any * help needed in the latest atrocities. *
September 11, 2001 - we shall remember
This thread inpsired me to ask my grandfather about my families involvement in the war. He and his three brothers were drafted into the army. He tells the story about how his mother was honored for having four sons in the service, even had a small celebration in her neighborhood, and then they took her radio because she was never naturalized and so could be an Italian sympathizer. <chuckle> Typical government mixed messages.
For three of them the war was uneventful. In fact my grandfather was saved from active duty by the atomic bomb. The war he trained for was over and he just spent a few months in Italy.
My Uncle John however was a bomber pilot. He was involved in the low altitude raid on the Ploesti Oil Fields in Romania. He was one of the lucky ones that survived it. He actually finished his fifty missions, a true wonder. A villiage in Romania found his crashed plane and asked him to come back for a memorial but he wasn’t interested. Kind of wish he had. I’m curious what it would have been like.
You’re right Nukeman. We will.
Can’t say I’m very fond of your nick, though. 
Or something pretty close, anyway.
One of them was my grandfather, the late Col. D. Arthur Walker. He ran for state Senate in Kansas in 1940, and basically used his campaign as a bully pulpit to get the message across that the war was going to find us, and we needed to be ready. (OK, so war preparations weren’t at the heart of a state legislature’s business, but that didn’t stop him.) He lost, of course, but at least he’d done what he could to get people thinking about it.
Then he went off and joined the U.S. Army Air Corps, as it was then known, at the age of 42.
Given his age, and that it was still peacetime in the USA, he couldn’t have gotten a combat-type commission at all, and that’s what he was after. But he was a lawyer, so they let him join the Air Corps’ JAG (legal) staff. He immediately began taking flying lessons. In the spring of 1942, he wangled a transfer to the combat side of the Air Corps, and ultimately trained men who took part in D-Day. He got transferred to the Pacific in the spring of 1945, and would likely have been part of the air support if we had had to invade Japan.
He was 47 when the war ended - the age I am now. And I’m extremely glad that no one’s going to try to get me into combat, thanks. But you couldn’t keep D. Arthur away from the action.
Unlike my wife’s grandfather, whose earthly remains lie in the cemetery that Coldfire has spoken so movingly of, my grandfather survived the war, and lived to the age of 82.
My great-uncle lies in Maargraten National Military Cemetery. I believe he would be happy that those servicemen are still rememered. He would also say that they were just doing their duty.
Our family would like to thank the Dutch families who adopt a serviceman’s grave, and help with placing flags during days of US remembrance holidays.
Great post.
(Nephew of Talmadge Eugene Bullard)
rockradio1
I’m glad this thread is back, what with Veteran’s Day coming up.