Ah… the most appropriate and classiest bulletin board post I’ve read. The OP is what led me to register on SDMB. A brilliant tribute. Thanks for reminding me again, Coldfire.
FD.
I missed this thread last year, Coldie. Thanks for pulling it back up again. I’m sitting here with tears in my eyes.
My wife’s grandfather is buried in that cemetery. She’s never been there. We plan on visiting in the next year or two. If you care to get together, the beer’s on us.
Thanks for the great responses, guys.
I saw an item on a current affairs program tonight that showed me that we’ll never be done with this. It’s quite an incredible, and to me, revolting story.
Throughout the Netherlands, about 2000 wrecks of allied aircraft still are burried under ground. They all crashed, most of them on their way from England to bombing German cities, or on their way back. Shot down by German ground-to-air artillery, stationed in the occupied Netherlands. It is estimated that at least 400 of those planes still carry the remains of their flight crews.
Let me state this as loud and clear as I can: we have a moral obligation to make sure these guys are burried properly, either here, or in their country of birth.
The government realises this too, and planes are being salvaged all the time. Of course, 2000 planes take a lot of time and effort. That’s why it’s been taking years. Then there’s the usual shit about paying off farmers whose fields you’re gonna tear open, et cetera. Bureaucratic stuff.
The news item was about a Canadian bomber. On its way back from a bombardment over Dortmundt, it was shot down near the town of Wilnis, some 20 kilometers southeast of Amsterdam, on May 5, 1943 (by coincidence, two years prior to our liberation - to the day). The pilot told the bombing crew to bail, but he and two others went down with the plane. Eye witnesses state that in a heroic effort, the pilot managed to steer the flaming bomber over the village, circled close around the church tower, and crashed in a meadow just outside of town. The pilot prevented a disaster, and had to pay for it with his life, and the life of two others. They were aged 24 to 27. The planes wing had cut into the side of a ditch, and caused the soft ground combined with the water to quickly absorb the plane. When villagers ventured out to the plane the next morning (the Germans shot anyone who approached a shot down allied plane, so it wasn’t safe at night), it has almost completely subermerged. Near the plane, the torn off leg and arm of the pilot were found. The remains were burried at the Wilnis cemetary - since the locals didn’t know who were in the plane, they had no way of contacting the relatives.
Fast forward to 2001. The local viccar has been in contact with the relatives of the flight crew of the Canadian bomber (it had been identified a year later by the RAF, see below). They all agree the plane should be salvaged, and the three men should be burried on Canadian soil. Fine, you’ll say.
One problem. The local government (who have to pay for the salvage operation) do not wish to cooperate. Reasons? A city council member states that “he has a financial responsibility towards the community as well, and the operation is too expensive”. Never mind that the viccar managed to raise 80,000 Guilders (USD 30,000) for the salvage operation within that same community. Never mind that the Dutch Ministry of Defence has stated that they will pay for whatever costs the municipality is unable to cover. Never mind the three letters the mayor of Wilnis received from the respective families in Canada, asking to salvage the plane. Asking to give them their brothers back. The mayor was quoted as saying: “This is a seamans grave, and should not be disturbed”. WTF?? A Canadian bomber under 2 meters of dirt is a seamans grave? Think again. Something’s fishy here.
So, this news crew decides to investigate it. It turns out that the British RAF undertook a salvage attempt in 1946, but they had to abort because of insufficient tools. So after identifying the plane, they left again, leaving a big crater with a half burried bomber. The reporters were able to track down an official municipal note from late 1946, stating that “the hole was filled with construction debris and old metal, and covered up”.
You disrespectful bastards. You used the only grave these three heroes had for a WASTE BIN?? Men who gave their lives for our freedom? WHAT A FUCKING DISGRACE.
The local government denies all charges, of course. They’re dodging ANY question having to do with the War. And the reporters found out why. All the Jewish inhabitants of the town were reported to the Nazis by the municipal administration weeks after the Nazis occupied the Netherlands. They were subsequently deported, and no doubt died a horrible death in one of the camps in Germany. Granted, this was a small town. The number of people handed over to the Nazis may not have been more than 20, 25 tops. But that’s irrelevant. You can easily see why this municipality is not exactly eager to open up ANY WWII file.
Fucking bastards. It’s one thing to have been a complete bunch of cowardly traitors during the war. But that’s 60 years ago!! No one’s going to hold the current administration responsible for it. Hell, they might even gather a lot of respect for doing the right thing. Being open about what went wrong during the war, and being open about how they dumped city waste over the dead bodies of three Canadian liberators. No one in charge NOW is responsible for it. This has got to end, now. We can’t bring back the Jews they sent towards a certain death. But we sure as HELL can make sure those three young Canadian heroes get the grave they so rightly deserve. On Canadian soil, and not in a rotting aircraft, 2 meters under the surface of a Dutch meadow.
A local man, who saw the crash happen and who found the remains of the pilot the next morning, ended the segment of the news item: “Every year, on the 5th of May, the marching band I play in visits the grave of the pilot. We observe 2 minutes of silence, and proceed to play the Canadian National Anthem. It is a very peaceful moment, in which we thank these guys. Guys like you and me, that were sent over to fight for our liberty. And paid the highest price. You know, it makes me very happy to still be able to do this, at age 80. But you know what would make me really proud? My ultimate dream is to fly over to Canada next year, with my marching band. We’ll play the Canadian Anthem at their graves, when they’re properly burried in their own country. We’ll be there, on the 5th of May.”
It’s not over. It’s not over by a long shot.
Thanks for listening.
[Edited by Coldfire on 05-04-2001 at 09:18 PM]
Tell your wife I would be honoured to meet her, or perhaps even to visit the cemetary at Margraten together.
It’s funny how this still affects us all, isn’t it?
I will tell her. And I am copying your first two posts in this thread and emailing them to her mom, who I know will deeply appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks again.
Dammit Coldie, I’m having trouble finding words for your last story. Okay, I fell asleep on the floor and I just woke up. I’m a little fuzzy.
Although nothing like that has happened in the U.S. (i.e., being invaded by a foreign power for years and then being liberated – The Revolution doesn’t count), I can empathize with the citizens of Wilnis. The country was overrun, a free society was thrust into the clutches of a totalitarian regime (please, no George Dubbya jokes here), friends and family were killed or disappeared, and so on and so forth. In 1946 the war was over and people just wanted to forget it. Perhaps they wanted to forget theshame of turning in their own citizens. They have this big hole, and they have a lot of debris. An expedient way of getting rid of the debris – for the people of Wilnis to rebuild their lives – was to put debris in the crater. Literally bury the past. I doubt the town council thought much about a few foreigners who had been buried for years. They may have thought that the British had recovered the bodies, or that if the British couldn’t get them out that they were beyond recovery. I can understand how the townspeople and the town council could have done this.
And what of the Jewish population that they turned in? I’d like to think that I would never behave that way. I think most people would like to think that they would hide families in their homes to keep them safe. But people do funny things when faced with reprisals that may include death. Many people who do not take part in… unsavory acts… will not raise a voice against them, lest they become the next target. It’s a common theme. I can understand why they would be reluctant to shine a light on their collective guilt. “Oh, you’re from Wilnis? You people sent your neighbours to their deaths!”
I can even understand how politicians would oppose digging up the past.
But…
People know what happened in that city. There’s nothing left to hide. “Too expensive”? Some people of the town have donated their own money for the cause. The Ministry of Defence will absorb the cost. There is no excuse for not exhuming the remains. I think of the enormous amount of money being spent to recover the remains of U.S. servicemen from Vietnam. I have to say, “Coldie is right to be upset.”
But what “gets” me is the amount of emotion you put in that post. As I said, a tragedy on the scale of what happened to The Netherlands and to other occupied countries has not happened here. We are safe behind two oceans. The amount of emotion displayed by the Dutch people, as evidenced by your starting of this thread and the posts you’ve made, is awe-inspiring.
Sure, we have Memorial Day. But as has been pointed out it’s an excuse for drinking lots of beer, having a barbeque, relaxing and having a good time. Oh, we have parades and there’s the laying of a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns; but “nobody” stops in his tracks to remain silent for two minutes. To remember what the day is meant to commemorate. I feel ashamed that we as a people take so frivolously what the Dutch take so seriously. Long-dead soldiers are occasionally brought home, and appropriate honours are rendered; but not by the Nation. The family attends the service, the government thanks them for their sacrifice, and there’s a story on the evening news. And the event goes nearly or totally unnoticed by everyone else. I can feel the seering anger you feel at the behaviour of your countrymen at not wanting to dig up some foreigners. The debt of gratitude the Dutch people feel toward the Canadian, American and British soldiers who helped to free them from the yoke of oppression is astounding. When an old man approached me in Belgium with his 8-year-old granddaughter in tow, to show her an American and to tell her how the Allies freed their country (I posted this last year), I was awe-struck. At the time, I thought it was just one old man who overlooked some of the things Americans have done that we are not proud of. I had no idea, then, that the feeling was so widespread. I am humbled. It makes me curse the injuries I sustained that kept me out of my life-long goal of serving in our nation’s military. On that day in 1982 I felt I certainly didn’t deserve the admiration of this old man, just because of the accident of the location of my birth. Perhaps I can take comfort that those of us who did not serve, would have served if circumstances were different. For all of our arrogance and bluster, I think were basically decent people.
I wish that every American could read this thread. I wish they could know what other people have gone through. I wish they could understand why it’s important to honour our veterans. I wish that they could know why I appreciate the annual ceremony at the USS Arizona memorial where my great-uncle still lies entombed. I wish they could understand why I still put my hand over my heart and stand at attention whenever I see a flight of jets in the Missing Man formation, and why I get choked up when the aircraft symbolizing the missing man leaves the formation and climbs to the heavens. (This is especially dramatic when there is an overcast and the Missing Man aircraft is lost from sight.)
With all of the dreck chain mail that goes out over the Internet, why can’t this thread be forwarded to everyone on everyone’s mailing list?
I thanked you last year for starting this thread. I thank you again for keeping it going.
And most of all, I thank the People of The Netherlands for their heartfelt remembrance of people from many nations, who most of them never knew. Thank you, Coldfire; and Thank you, People of The Netherlands!
You can believe this: I and many others who have read (the count is nearly 13,000 views) or contributed to this thread will remember Memorial Day.
And I apologize for not being a better writer.
You can count me in on that.
This really hit home for me. Tomorrow I’m going to visit my grandparents, and as much as I dread the visits sometimes (gramma’s kind of losing it upstairs), goddammit, both of them served in WWII. It’s how they met. My grandfather took a bullet in the leg, and he’s still tough as nails. tougher.
I know I haven’t been here at the SDMBs very long, but I second the nomination for the best thread ever. Thanks Coldfire.
This Memorial Day I am going to the Veteran’s Cemetary in Little Falls, MN. My uncle, the Vietnam veteran, is buried there. My great-uncle, a WWII medic and musician, will be there as well.
I still cry when I read this thread, you know that? I do just fine til I read spoke-'s and I break up all over again.
Coldfire. Two words: BRAVO ZULU
I’ve wanted to post than from time to time, in one thread or another; but I didn’t think anyone would know what it meant!
Thank you for bringing this thread back to our attention, Coldfire. And thank you to everyone who’s contributed additional stories here. This is without a doubt the most moving thread ever posted on these boards.
I recently had the pleasure of visiting Amsterdam. During my stay, I toured the house Anne Frank had to hide in during the war. I can’t begin to explain how overwhelming that experience was. When I stepped back out onto the pavement, I looked at this beautiful city through entirely different eyes - eyes that could freely enjoy the magnificence of the architecture, the canals, the landscape - unlike a young girl and her family who weren’t even able to see any of it for more than 2 years (July 6, 1942 to August 4, 1944), let alone walk the streets, because they were too afraid to even peer out the windows, that they might be discovered and murdered merely for the religion they practiced.
Anne died in March of 1945 in the death camp at Bergen-Belsen, mere weeks before the liberation. Peter Van Pels, who, with his family, joined the Franks in hiding, died in the camp at Mauthausen on May 5th, 1945.
Coldfire, you live in a magnificent city. My heart goes out to your countrymen for the suffering they endured during this hideous time in our history. And I’d like to once again express my deep gratitude to all those servicemen and women who put their lives on the line (often losing them) to ensure that I’d be able to make that transatlantic trip and enjoy the beauty of Amsterdam.
P.S. I mentioned last year, when you lost your beloved grandfather, that I had planted a tree in his memory. Click here to see a picture of it, with a small tribute to him. It’s not a very good picture because the tree isn’t in bloom yet with its gorgeous purple flowers and I mistakenly planted some flowers at the base that have gotten too big and obscure most of the trunk (which I plan to uproot and move to a different spot shortly), but it’s posted for you to see, none-the-less. I’ll update the picture when the tree flowers, so you can see how really beautiful it is.
Time to resurrect my old sig for this thread…
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
[Edited by Coldfire on 05-05-2001 at 06:46 PM]
Again, guys, thanks for all the great responses. Johnny L.A., don’t worry man. You’re a fine writer in my book, and what’s more, you -to use a Dutch expression- “have your heart in the right place”. I’m sure you understand what that means.
Shayna, I can’t thank you enough for planting a tree in honour of my grandfather. What a lovely tribute. I’m having trouble finding the right words… just a very big THANK YOU is all I’m able to type down.
It’s heartwarming to know that stories like that of my grandfather, and stories of countless others, are able to move us still.
And by all means, people. If you’re ever in Amsterdam, do visit the Anne Frank Huis. Whoever you are, and whatever your background is, I think this is an experience so profound and humbling, it ought to be mandatory for everyone.
OK, one last thing. You guys got me on the “Bravo Zulu”. Sure, a military abreviation. B.Z. - what does it stand for?
well done, coldfire, well done.
from http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/questions/bzulu.html
Where does the term
“Bravo Zulu” originate?
'The term originates from the Allied Signals Book (ATP 1), which in the aggregate is for official use only. Signals are sent as letters and/or numbers, which have meanings by themselves sometimes or in certain combinations. A single table in ATP 1 is called “governing groups,” that is, the entire signal that follows the governing group is to be performed according to the “governor.” The letter “B” indicates this table, and the second letter (A through Z) gives more specific information. For example, “BA” might mean "You have permission to . . . (do whatever the rest of the flashing light, flag hoist or radio transmission says) “BZ” happens to be the last item in the governing groups table. It means “well done”. ’
Amen.
Thanks for the explanation, beagledave.
“They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.”
That’s beautiful, Al. A poem? It doesn’t sound familiar to me.
Coldfire, it is on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Edinburgh, Scotland. Don’t know if it was original there or written for another occasion as well. I also saw it on a scrap of paper on the fence at the site of the Oklahoma bombing, before the new memorial was finished. Robert Heinlein included it in a story in one of his books.
For the Fallen
With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.
Solemn the drums thrill: Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres.
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.
They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
They mingle not with laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England’s foam.
But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;
As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain,
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.
Laurence Binyon (1869-1943)
headshok, my thanks for providing the complete text. It is more beautiful than I imagined. I slways did wonder where the clip came from. Now I will have to run a search on the poet, to find other of his works.