Please tell me what national retailers are not in business to maximize profits.
Enjoy it while you can. Wait till you try that the week that none of the security guys got their bonus due to high shrinkage.
I’m just saying it’s Standard Operating Procedure. You got the probable cause nail right on the head.
If I’m reading you correctly, yes. My point was merely that if theft is not sensitive to prices, then a retailer cannot change prices to recoup the loss due to theft. Also, and secondarily, that if theft is sensitive to price, then it is not obvious to me that theft will necessarily cause prices to rise. (I’ll defer to someone who has done the math on that.)
Perhaps that’s why these point of exit checks are cost effective. They can reduce anonymity of customers (a customer theft deterrent) and provide a “randomized” check of bag contents against recepts (an employee theft deterrent). I once worked in a kite store and the boss “just happened” to leave out a book on how to detect employee theft. While I was scrupulously honest, I can see how if I were stealing, I would certainly have had second thoughts.
I did not mean to imply that retailers, national or otherwise, do not seek to maximize profits. Only that if they didn’t, and if theft weren’t sensitive to prices, then a retailer could recoup costs by raising prices. In effect, I was saying to cmkeller that I agree that a retailer would raise prices in response to theft, but only if the retailer isn’t already a profit maximizer.
I was taking profit maximization as a given in my argument that prices are insensitive to theft.
Sorry for being unclear.
Let me expand on the concealment concept a little more. At Target, we sell plastic tubs and trash cans that are stackable. It is a fairly common idea among shoplifters to put DVDs, CDs or Sudafed between two tubs somewhere in the middle of a large stack of the tubs. The cashier is supposed to check between each and every one of these tubs, but it rarely happens. If the customer then sets off the EAS sensors, the security person now has probable cause to search the tubs. Over the eight month period that I did this (I transferred back to the salesfloor), I found probably about $500 worth of merchandise in this manner. I worked in a very small volume store, and was the only doorman, so this was considered successful in my store.
Yes, the merchandise passing scheme is common as well. So was giving an employee discount to someone that didn’t work for Target, but that is nearly impossible with the new POS system. I never had any customer charged with fraud in this manner, but did have a couple cashiers fired for it.
As for the legallity of these systems, you are on private property, and every case I’ve seen (limited to my Poli-Sci books) deals with searches and seizures by a government agency on public property or in the suspect’s home. Since the store is the property of the corporation, I believe (I may be very wrong) that you are subject to these searches as long as you are on the premises. I have had notices of trespass issued against people like biz that just blow through the door. Usually I just called in the plate number and a name off the check or credit card used.
Whew. Typist’s cramp.
Oh, and at six feet, 162 pounds, I take offense to the word goon 
I always lick my receipt right after receiving it.
An old trick I learned in school to keep kids from mooching my lunch.
Slight Hijack
**(Bolding Mine)[b/]
Am I the only one who finds the bolded part disturbing? I certainly hope there are very strict limits on that part.
“…if such detention does not exceed one hour, slander, malicious prosecution, false imprisonment, false arrest, and assault and battery claims” sounds like a very strict limit to me.
No, D.E.S.K.Top668, assault and battery is when you tell somebody to stop and then put your hand on his shoulder.
I thought assault had to be violent in nature. Or is there a different legal meaning?
Attrayant:
No, assault and battery merely means the action, or threat, of an offensive physical contact. Touching someone without their consent, even if it causes no injury, is the tort of assault.
- Rick
Notice that Virginia law shields against civil liability, not criminal.
Sorry if my post wasn’t clear, Attrayant. What I meant was, is there a limit on what they can do to physically stop you-for example: if I was leaving a store and didn’t hear them telling me to stop, would the law not allow me to seek compensation if security brought me down with a flying tackle from behind?
Ethilrist, IANAL, but I thought Assault & Battery covered a wide variety of actions, from putting a hand on your shoulder to the above example. I apologise if I’m mistaken.
DESK-Apologising for the hijack
When asked if they can see my receipt, I say “no, thanks” in a friendly way and keep going.
And then I try not to patronize those stores in the future. Target has stopped asking in my area because it pissed people off (I assume).
What exactly a store can do depends (wait for it…) on state and local laws, so you’d have to check what the law is in your area. Generally, a store security person can ask for a search for no reason. He needs some kind of probable cause or reasonable suspicion to demand a search or to detain or arrest you, however, and in most states ‘refusing to consent to a search’ doesn’t qualify so you often can just walk on by. If the sensor thing beeps, if you didn’t come right off of the register, if they saw you shoving things in the bag, then you can’t just breeze on by without getting into more trouble. Everywhere that I’m aware of you can require something along the lines of ‘either accuse me of stealing or stop bothering me’ and can certainly demand a manager etc., and there are very specific limits on what the store guards can do (varies by state - for example in NC, no one but police can require you to move without your consent, so they can’t require you to go to a back room).
(IANAL, so take this with a grain of salt) Posting a policy on a wall does not constitute a legal contract in most places; the store can tell you to leave (and invoke trespassing laws) or refuse you service (and tell you to leave) if you don’t comply with a posted policy, but you haven’t entered a contract just by walking past a sign, and once you’ve paid for your goods you’re the owner. I could put up a sign saying that it’s store policy that all women (er, or ‘all people’ if that hits a discrimination thing) must show their breasts before leaving the store, but all I can do to enforce it is tell them to leave if they refuse. Implicit contracts (like what happens when you buy stuff) are pretty limited and don’t get set by the store, but by general usage, specific laws, or something similar. Also, by being open to the public a store relinquishes some private property rights (you can refuse to allow Mexicans into your home, but not your store). Note that this is very different from ‘club’ stores like Sam’s or Costco where you actually do sign an agreement, ignoring their policies is a different matter.
Yes but criminal law also recognizes “reasonable” in many issues.
Tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention may be by the strict definition “battery” but good luck selling it to a jury that you were the victim of an attack upon your person that forced you to need to defend yourself by hitting the security guard.
Also: IIRC (please correct me if I’m wrong) If store security detains you and you resist or evade they would be legally allowed to use whatever force is needed to hold you for the police.
In many respects a police officer (despite many contrary opinions) is not all that much more entitled to arrest you than a private citizen. They have additional expertise that makes it more likely to support their claim in court and additional tools to enable them to do so in a safer and or more efficent manner.
No, you’re right, it covers a broad range of things, but that’s the minimum starting point, and if I were a hoity-toity lawsuit-seeker, I could charge somebody with A&B for doing just that much. So, they build it into the laws that I can’t actually charge the guy.
Granted, if he does much more than that, it rapidly escalates into more serious charges (aggravated assault, for example), but the basic A&B can be pretty mild stuff.
Hmm In my experience (granted CA law here) this would be a little more flexible.
Would this apply if your presence was causing a disruption of business. If you are making a huge scene (and don’t think for a second the guilty ones won’t) you will get dragged off somewhere where the customers will not have to listen to someone screaming obcenities and ranting about their civil rights being violated.
In another thread someone mentioned you should make a huge scene to avoid being taken out of public view. I found it kinda foolish since by doing so…you almost guarentee it.
We used to do this all the time, PD never made any mention of our practice, so I guess it isn’t a real big deal, as long as we are justified in our arrest.
Drachillix, I’m sure the laws here vary a lot between the states. What I posted there was a quick explanation, let me go a little further on NC stuff(again, IANAL but I have read up on the statutes and practice):
NC doesn’t have a Citizen’s Arrest anymore, there is only Citizen’s Detention. For certain crimes (which includes shoplifting and theft if you’re an agent of the store) you can detain someone, where you inform them that you’re detaining them, call the police immediately (well, ‘as soon as is practical’, which is immediately in a store with a working phone), and hold them using reasonable force until the police arrive. Where this differs from an arrest is that you can hold the person, but not move them - only the police can arrest you and remove you from the scene. The person can agree to move somewhere, but no one but a cop (and a cop on-duty in the correct jurisdiction, off-duty cops make a detention like anyone else) can make you do anything but sit and wait for the cops.
If someone is making a big scene, you can detain them but once you lay hands on them to take them in the back room, you’re comitting false imprisonment, assault, or a similar crime and the person can fight back as if a random person on the street started grabbing them. What you can do, however, is remove a trespasser from your property; start with verbal directions to leave, then gentle hands, then force (but not deadly force) to get them out of the store and onto a public area. I’m not real sure about removing a trespasser then detaining them, but I’m sure it’s been worked out before.