Just so there’s a cite on the castle doctrine:
SB 436 passed without opposition
However, HB 249 has not yet passed in the House
As such, it probably is still illegal to shoot someone who has broken into your house. But IANAL and maybe I’m missing something.
Wow, I really sympathize with your situation.
I lived in an apartment by myself in a large complex on the ground floor - it was nice because it was on the lawn where my dog and cat could look out the veranda screen and watch the squirrels, chipmuncks, birdies, and other pets in the complex.
One night, my little dog Bernadette (who has no idea how small she is - she used to beat up on a Samoyed we lived with who was about 8x larger than she was) went bonko and barked and barked like she was going to lose it. I got up, wandered around the apartment, didn’t see anything, and went back to bed. Half an hour later, I was kind of asleep, but saw someone outside my bedroom window - silhouetted behind the blinds.
Somehow, I remianed calm and said - I have a gun, I am calling the police. Perp fled. I left notes for everyone around the complex to let them know what happened. I called the police, they interviewed me, and I recalled I had seen someone in the yeard that night while walking Bernie just standing by a tree, not doing anything. Bernie had growled at him - not like her at all. She’s such a whore, she wags her tail at everyone.
Luckily, the folks who lived across the hall from me were a great couple I was acquainted with. The gent was a cop. He brought home night vision goggles and his gun and waited up that night. Nothing happened that night, but a few nights later, I saw the same guy in the complex yard again as i was walking Bernie. Agaion, she was growling like all hell. I told Jodi, the gal next door, and foolishly if not bravely, she screamed at him and started chasing him. Al ran to get his stuff, and Jodi and I chased this guy and he ran off.
We called the police, and again, they said there wasn’t anything they could do unless they caught him in the act.
Turns out the complex had a problem with a fellow in the complex next to us who would peek thorugh windows and stalk folks. They never alerted me or anyone, even when I complained. The police told me. I confronted the complex, they told me yes, it had happened, but they didn’t “think” it was the same guy. Whatever.
After that, I slept with the windows all closed, bought some fans, and listened to Bernie when she would bark inthe middle of the night. She always got treats afterwards.
Took me a while to feel safe again, but eventually I did. I kept a knife in my room (I never had a gun), pepper spray next to my bed, a phone next to my bed and learned to sleep well again.
My thoughts are with you. Hopefully it will resolve peacefully, with no further trauma.
Respectfully,
Inky
My understanding, which certainly could be wrong, is that the castle doctrine stands now, as common law. What Florida is doing is codifying that, and also expanding it into other places besides the home.
Could be… I’ve never heard common law used to describe anything other than marriage. Is it somehow laws that aren’t on the books or something? I’m confused…
Also, The NRA’s page says that Florida courts have imposed the standard “duty to retreat” doctrine. As such, shooting an intruder might very well be a crime under current laws.
Maybe I’m ignorant regarding the Guard Dog conversation, but, while Rotts are a good choice, wouldn’t a German Shep work just as well, if not better? I grew up with a Shep (named Rebel, if anyone cares), and I just couldn’t imagine relying on a different breed to protect my (theoretical) family. Then again, maybe I’m just ignorant and biased.
Marriage is a good example. The common law marriage is recognized except where it has been explicitly legislated out of existance by statute. If there is not a statute explicitly addressing the point, then common law holds. Since Florida does not have such a statute addressing the castle doctrine, then it is valid.
Then the NRA is obfuscating the facts. The duty to retreat doctrine has as a basic exception being in ones home. The castle doctrine, in other words. What Florida wants to do is to by statute expand the places where a duty to retreat does not hold to include … well, damn near anywhere, apparently.
Wikipedia’s page isn’t well written. I did find this
I hope a lawyer comes along and cleans up my ham-fisted explanation.
While bars are effective at keeping people out, they can also be effective at keeping people in. If a fire broke out in my house I’d personally not want to have an obstacle barring an exit. Even the security bars that have some kind of emergency release on the inside might be too much for a young, terrified and possibly disoriented child to deal with. You might want to think long and hard about installing security bars and if you do, be sure to follow the state code to the letter:
“The (Florida) state building code prohibits fixed bars in sleeping areas unless there are two other escape routes: either two doors, or a door and a window, neither requiring a key. And the code applies to all homes, no matter when they were built.”
Just a quick note about German Shepards as guard dogs/pets: great breed, and they also have a high intimidation factor. But IMHO based on 30+ years growing up with them, they can require a lot of time and effort to train. And sometimes when they “come into their own” – initally mature into adulthood, that is (esp. the males)-- they can get a little squirrely with strangers, particularly smaller children. Also, I don’t know about all German Shepards, but mine have never seemed to be able to stop barking madly at people, cars and other dogs that they see on a regular basis, something that can be a little frustrating: “Dammit Gheta! That’s our neighbor coming to feed her horse! You’ve only seen her drive by here twice a day for the past SEVEN YEARS!” Hey, at least that way I know they’re always on patrol. And it may be a trait that many breeds have.
But like Superdude said, if you’re willing to work with them then German Shepards are likely to turn out to be some of the best damn dogs you’ve ever known.
Good luck to you in getting this resolved bob fortuna, hopefully peacefully and without any further scares for you and your daughter.
Not ham-fisted at all. IANAL in Florida, so I don’t know their laws specifically, but I can speak generally about some of the points you raise.
“Common law” is also known as “judge-made law,” or the law found in cases. It can be compared to statutory law. If there is a statute on the books, follow the statute. Common law fills in the gaps left unfilled by a statute. For example, if a statute says a person must be “reasonable,” the common law will flesh that out and give a definition of what reasonable means by applying that statute, over time, to a variety of cases.
In addition, there are some crimes or civil wrongs that arise out of the common law, for which there is no statute, but the states recognize them. “Common law marriage” is more of an ancient relic than a modern doctrine – there are very few states left that recognize a common law marriage.
There is no difference between the common law and the law – they’re the same thing, but common law just describes where you find that law written (and that is mostly in cases).
I haven’t researched the issue, but what I gather from the links is that Florida still recognizes the duty to retreat, but that there is a bill pending to adopt the western rule (this was the first time I’d heard the “castle doctrine” term used). Most eastern states have the duty to retreat, so Florida isn’t unusual (most western states do not impose a duty to retreat).
Under the duty to retreat at common law (again, I’m not speaking specifically about Florida), every person essentially has a duty to avoid confrontation, so if someone invades your home, you have a duty to leave your home. At common law, then, the duty of retreat says that you cannot shoot an intruder; instead, you must try to avoid the confrontation. (Theoretically, the basis for such a rule is that you should not sacrifice a human life to protect tangible things.) Obviously, if confrontation becomes inevitable (he’s blocking the door), that changes the analysis.
As an aside, I found the NRA’s phrasing (that the Florida courts have “taken away” the right to kill intruders) to be disingenuous. I haven’t researched this and ought to be corrected if I’m wrong, but I’d be surprised if Florida had ever adopted the western rule, so it seems strange to refer to the Florida courts as “taking away” rights Floridians never had.
bob fortuna: you can tell by the posts here how concerned the community is about this issue. We can’t tell you what to do, and I don’t know what the law is in your jurisdiction. All I can tell you is that you’ve hit the problem on the head: you don’t want to make things worse for your daughter by getting in trouble yourself.
There has to be a middle ground between “do nothing” and “kill the SOB.” You’re doing the right thing to involve the cops. Please let them do their jobs (and stay on them to make sure they do). Cops take threats to children very seriously, and they have immunities and training that you don’t have. Please be careful. I second all the suggestions about cameras and lights. If you can’t put bars on the window, can you do something outside the window (I’m not creative enough – all I can come up with is a quicksand pit) that makes it hard to get to the window?
Good luck.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html has a bit on legal use of force.
If you end up using lethal force, don’t talk to much to the police without a lawyer present even if it seems to be a clear cut legal shooting.
Pretty much any state in the union, as long as he has his head in the window, you are acting in self defense.
Bang bang maxwell’s silver hammer…
No, see, I thought you only used a Silver hammer if a dead Pope was coming through your window, just to make sure he was dead…
Wild theory - could there be any chance that your daughter is trying to sneak out at night to join friends, and is feigning ignorance in order to not get in trouble? I imagine that you probably know her social situation and all, but many parents seem to think their little angel can do no wrong. When I was 11 and 12, I was constantly sneaking out to hang out with friends and just mess around, and I very often went out my bedroom window to do so.
FWIW, when my parents brought my little brother home from the hospital, they were worried about how Rebel would react to a new family member. If you weren’t in the “circle,” (me, my older brother, and my parents), he’d try to rip your head off. Even cousins that he’d been around since he was a pup.
When Erick came hom efrom the hospital, my parents sat Rebel down, let him sniff Erick, and explained to him (reasoning with a dog…I know) that he was a part of the family, too, and that Rebel had to protect him as much as he did us.
There was never any problem with Rebel getting “squirrely” with Erick. I realize that you were referring to kids outside of the family, but I thought that I’d point out that my parents had similar concerns regarding an internal child.
If anyone even looks at my son funny, I must resist the urge to smash. And we live in a neighborhood with many RSOs. I don’t let the wife go out at night without me. DrLoveGun Smash bad people. Good luck
In the U.S. and all Commonwealth countries, the common law = precedent law formulated by the courts. “Judge-made Law” as Campion said. Statute law is “law on the books”, or set down in the form of legislation enacted by parliament/Congress/etc.
IANA(U.S.)L.
I have a basic gut reaction against any “duty to retreat” law myself. If someone sneaks into, or breaks into my home, I did not initiate the confrontation, he did. He is there for no good reason. It is my home and he was not invited; he has no business here. To me, duty to retreat puts the victim in more legal and physical jeopardy than the criminal. That is wrong. Likewise, if I have to use force, I do not want someone second guessing whatever actions I have to take. I do not believe in the “gamesmanship” of limiting my options only to the level the criminal has already made obvious. I don’t know if he has a knife or a gun, and I’m not going to box with him to find out. These sort of laws are stupid. They protect the safety of the criminal and put all the risk and danger on the victims.
I have no legal cites or any data for this, it’s just my gut reaction.
Steve, I have to agree with you.
If someone breaks into my home, the safest thing for me to do is assume that he has access to lethal force, not to start with fisticuffs and hope that he doesn’t pull a blade or a gun. Likewise, if you’ve got family in the house, it’s pretty much impossible to flee, or at least impossible to get everybody out. And if I can’t get my loved one’s out, I’m sure as hell not running away.
In a situation where your body is the only thing between your children and someone whose intentions are unknown beyond being criminal enough to break into your home, I say the fight half of the fight/flight reaction is called for.
NB: I am not advocating any illegal activity. It’s up to people to know the laws where they’re living. If a court would still consider that you had a duty to retreat even if you had a sleeping child in the bedroom down the hall… well, then obviously I can’t advise you to drop the motherfucker and make sure he stays down until the police arive.
By the way Bob, any updates?
Nothing to report. We may not ever know who was responsible, and if this can blow over and just fade away I’ll be a happy guy. I have relocated her computer desk in front of that window. the damage to the frame was mostly cosmetic and the lock didn’t give any at all.
I have done a little research and found that with my DD-214 from the Navy, a concealed weapons permit can be mine for just a few dollars.( Now I’m gonna need some advise on selecting a weapon.)
A “thank you” to all who have responded. The thought that she may have used the window to come and go hit me blind like a ton of bricks, however I’m confident this is not the case.
Gotta run, bob