Meaning of Jewish year 5765?

[BrainGlutton]

Nobody knows? How long have the Jews been numbering the years by this system? Did the practice start in the Middle Ages, or earlier?

[zev_steinhardt]

@cmkeller

zev:

Correct, his death date would be 931, in this system. Most such chronological tables continue to use the old dating system for Biblical dates because it makes calculation much easier, or simply because they just don’t know any better. But, as demonstrated in the above cite, Adam’s creation-as-year-one, while once the standard, seems to not be the basis for our current Hebrew date.

OK, I’ve got to concede. All I found to support my side was Seder Olam, but following his count we’re not in 5765.

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

@rsenyc68

Not sure where you heard this, but you have to have very liberal definitions of “recorded civilization” and “roughly” to make this fit.

I think he meant to say (and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) that recorded human history (not civilization) is about 6000 years old.

Zev Steinhardt

[BrainGlutton]

You should know, zev – how long have the Jews been numbering the years by this system?

[BrainGlutton]

Another question – if the Jews already had a “mundane” calendar, why did Bishop Ussher feel the need to revisit the question and make his own scriptural calculations of the world’s age?

[zev_steinhardt]

@BrainGlutton

You should know, zev – how long have the Jews been numbering the years by this system?

I gave the traditional answer above – that we have always been keeping track since the very Beginning.

However, if you want a non-traditional answer, I’ll provide one for you. The answer is that in the times of the Talmud, Jews did not date their contracts with the date since Creation. Rather, they were dated according to a system called Minyan Shtaros (the counting of contracts). Year one in this system was 312-311 BCE, the rise to power of Nicator Seleucus. However, it’s clear from the Talmud in Avoda Zara that even at that time they dated their contracts with the count of Minyan Shtaros, they were also aware of the current year Anno Mundi. So you could say that it’s at least as of that time.

Chaim:

As an interesting aside, Artscroll (the very same publisher whose work you brought down as your source, prints their charts in the back of the Stone Chumash with 1-130 for Adam. I guess they don’t read their own books. In any event, I still concede the point.

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

@BrainGlutton

Another question – if the Jews already had a “mundane” calendar, why did Bishop Ussher feel the need to revisit the question and make his own scriptural calculations of the world’s age?

Perhaps he wasn’t aware that we had a count?

Zev Steinhardt

[BrainGlutton]

@zev_steinhardt

The answer is that in the times of the Talmud, Jews did not date their contracts with the date since Creation.

By “the times of the Talmud,” do you mean, say, 200 C.E.? Or later?

From the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud):

The Jewish Oral law was recorded by Rabbi Judah haNasi and redacted as the Mishnah in 200 CE. The oral traditions were committed to writing to preserve them, as it became apparent that the Palestine community, and its learning, was threatened. The rabbis of the Mishnah are known as Tannaim (sing. Tanna); teachings in the Mishnah are generally reported in the name of a Tanna.

Over the next three centuries the Mishna underwent analysis and debate in Israel and Babylon (the world’s major Jewish communities). This analysis is known as Gemara. The rabbis of the Gemara are referred to as Amoraim (sing. Amora). See Gemara for further discussion.

The Mishnah and the Gemara together comprise the Talmud. The Talmud is thus the combination of a core text, the Mishnah, or “redaction” (from the verb shanah שנה, to repeat, revise) and subsequent analysis and commentary, the gemara, or “completion” (from gamar גמר, to complete).

[BrainGlutton]

Also from the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_the_date_of_Creation):

Dating the Biblical Creation
The Bible begins with the Book of Genesis, in which God creates the world, including the first human, a man named Adam, in a period of six days. Genesis goes on to list many of Adam’s descendants, in many cases giving the ages at which they had children and died. By interpreting these ages literally, and adding them up, it is possible to build up a chronology, in which many of the events of the Old Testament are dated to an estimated number of years after the Creation.

Some scholars have gone further, and have attempted to tie in this Biblical chronology with that of recorded history, thus establishing a date for the Creation in a modern calendar. Since there are periods in the Biblical story where dates are not given, the chronology has been subject to interpretation in many different ways, resulting in a variety of estimates of the date of Creation.

Two dominant dates for Biblical Creation exist, about 5500 BC and about 4000 BC. These were calculated from the genealogies in two versions of the Bible, with most of the difference arising from two versions of Genesis. The oldest was translated into Greek from the Hebrew Torah during the third century BC as the first book of the Septuagint. It was used by Jews until about 100, then by all Christians until 405, then by the Byzantines until 1453, and is still used by the various Orthodox churches. The newest was due to a revision of the Torah by Jews about 100, which was slightly modified about 900 (though not affected this genealogy), and is still used by all Jews. Jerome translated it into Latin as the first book of the Vulgate in 405, then it was used by all Western Christians, who split into Roman Catholics and Protestants beginning in 1517. Basically, the patriarchs from Adam to the father of Abraham were often 100 years older when they begat their named son in the Septuagint than they were in the Vulgate (Genesis 5, 11). The net difference between the two genealogies was 1436 years (ignoring the “second year after the flood” ambiguity), which is virtually all of the 1500-year difference between 5500 BC and 4000 BC.

Jewish scholars give two dates for Creation according to the Talmud. They state that the first day of Creation week was either Elul 25, AM 1 or Adar 25, AM 1, almost twelve or six months, respectively, after the modern epoch of the Hebrew calendar. Most prefer Elul 25 whereas a few prefer Adar 25. These place the sixth day of Creation week, when Adam was created, on the first day of the following month, either Tishri or Nisan, the first month of either the civil or biblical year, respectively. In both cases, the epoch of the modern calendar was called the molad tohu or mean new moon of chaos, because it occurred before Creation. This epoch was Tishri 1, AM 1 or October 7, 3761 BCE, the latter being the corresponding tabular date (same daylight period) in the proleptic Julian calendar. Thus the majority place the first day of Creation week on September 25, 3760 BCE, while a minority place it on March 29, 3760 BCE, both in the proleptic Julian calendar.

According to the Byzantine calendar, the world was created on September 1, 5509 BC.

One of the best known estimates in modern times is that of Bishop James Ussher (1581–1656), who proposed a date of Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC, in the Julian calendar. It is a common belief that he also gave an exact time of Creation, but this is not found in Ussher’s work [1] (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/ussher.htm). Andrew D. White, in his book A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom, attributes the following statement to Dr. John Lightfoot (1602–1675), Vice-Chancellor of the University of Cambridge, who was a contemporary of Ussher, but who published his own calculations before Ussher’s were completed:

“[T]his work took place and man was created by the Trinity on October 23, 4004 B.C., at nine o’clock in the morning.”

[tomndebb]

if the Jews already had a “mundane” calendar, why did Bishop Ussher feel the need to revisit the question and make his own scriptural calculations of the world’s age?

As Zev noted, he may have been ignorant of (or biased against using) the Jewish reckoning. However, more to the point, the good bishop’s intention was not to simply set an “official” date of the beginning of the world. Rather, he was setting out a coherent fusion of scriptural and secular history that he was reconciling. In this effort, rather than borrow from any other scholar (from Venerable Bede (3952 B.C.E.) to Johannes Kepler (3992 B.C.E) to Isaac Newton (4000 B.C.E.) to the Talmudic scholars) he set out to re-calculate the entire enterprise, himself, and happened to arrive at that particular date.

[rsenyc68]

@zev_steinhardt

I think he meant to say (and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) that recorded human history (not civilization) is about 6000 years old.

I know little of the scriptures or of Judaism, but I do know a fair amount about archaeology and history. Even with the correction I still believe the statement is inaccurate. I don’t know of anything that happened ~6000 years ago that makes it qualify as “history” whereas events before do not. Weapons, currency, language, temples, utensils, decoration, art, ceremonies, written communication – all of these things were unquestionably present before 6000 years ago.