meat and vegetables

Let’s see if I understand, Dex. We start out with a statement by God that the plants of the world were made to be eaten by the animals. There is no specific prohibition against eating animals recorded, but no specific permission to eat them, either.

Man eventually gets kicked out of Eden. No record exists that Adam and Eve were given any greater leeway in how they lived regarding food. We speculate that, as there were herders of sheep, sheep were eaten, but we also speculate that sheep were simply sheared or sacrificed. So, in the post-Eden, pre-Flood era, we have no clear idea what the acceptable (meaning, God approved) standard was.

Mankind reacts to its freedom from Eden badly. Eventually, Mankind behaves so badly that God is tempted to give up the whole experiment. Instead, God has Noah and his family survive a flood that wipes out all of humanity as it exists at the time (does this mean that genetic anthropologists should be looking not for Eve, but for Noah and his wife?). When the Flood is over, God tells Noah that “Every creature that lives shall be yours to eat; as with the green grasses, I give you all these. You must not, however, eat flesh with its life-blood in it.”

Now, presumably God is making it clear to Noah that Mankind has to live a better type of life than it did before the Flood. Before the Flood, Man had no permission to eat animal flesh. Does this mean that God’s “permission” to eat animal flesh, given after the Flood, recognizes that Man needs flesh to live a better life?

The alternate idea would be that Man never was prohibited from eating flesh, even in Eden. In that case, God’s words to Noah don’t provide permission for a previously prevented practice. Instead, they merely confirm to Noah that, just because God had him save the animals doesn’t mean he can’t eat them; they and the “grasses” are given to mankind as food. Thus, a confirmation of things as they were.

Your glib statement at the beginning of the report that, “This is an easy one. Answer: Yes, your friend is correct – the Bible presupposes a pristine state of vegetarianism” I think should be modified. One interpretation of the statements is that vegetarianism was the permissible lifestyle; this interpretation apparently has considerable support at least currently from Judaism’s religious authorities; your report didn’t make it clear how ancient were the interpretations of the statements in the Pentateuch upon which you are commenting. But alternate interpretations would seem to be at least as potentially acceptable based on the text itself. And the interpretation advanced certainly raises some question as to which lifestyle God has given an imprimatur to.

Careful, or you’ll go blind. I hear.

DSYoung:

AND PEOPLE. That’s the first part of the quote.

Actually, there is in fact an opinion in the Talmud that man was allowed to eat of animals that died naturally, and the permission given to Noah was that he would be allowed to kill animals for the sake of eating their meat.

Now that, actually, I can see. If the prohibition was not about eating flesh, but was about killing animals, this would conform with both the “idyllic” concept of Eden and the prophecies of a similarly idyllic life after the coming of the Messiah. No killing = no slaughtered animals = no steak for dinner, but oh, boy, gotta love that roadkill stew!

What I still find troubling with this interpretation is the concept that Noah needs to be given permission to kill animals after the flood. Does anyone know of how far back the “vegetarian” and “scavanger only” interpretations go?

After the Fall, there were a lot of sinners running around. I bet a few of them were meat eaters, even if there were notices posted.

Pish and posh. Permission had to have been given before the flood, otherwise why would God have commanded Noah to bring seven pairs of clean animals and only one pair of unclean animals?

Since Noah would have had to have known the difference between clean and unclean animals, which is a distinction of which kind of animal can be eaten, not only would God had to have given permission to eat meat before the flood, He also would have had to told them which were Kosher and which were not. Remember, there were over 1500 years between the creation of Adam and Eve to the flood, plenty of time for more communication between God and His creation than is recorded in the Bible.

Assuming, therefore, that the notion of clean and unclean meats was in effect before the flood, the distinction in Gen 9:3 (“I now give you everything”) seems to be a revocation of the Kosher rules (which were then reinstated with Moses, and then, many Chistians believe, re-revoked by Jesus (“It’s not what you eat that makes you unclean”) and Paul).

Skott:

“Clean” for sacrificial purposes. Not for human consumption. Cattle, sheep, goats, birds of the dove family.

By contrast, in addition to those animals, deer and fowl (for example) are “clean” for kosher consumption, but not allowed as sacrifices.

Chaim Mattis Keller