The tax-filing thread got me looking up some statistics about average income in teh US and the Netherlands. Another reason for doing this is that on thse boards, it seemed that Dutch amount so money are tiny compared to the USA ( A Doper once asked incredulously, for instance, if an inheritance of 30 K was considered “substantial”).
I’m Dutch, and have a good income by my country’s standards. I work 32 hours a week, and after taxes get about 2500 euro’s a month. Mortgage after tax benefits is net 700 euro’s a month. ( To get from Euro’s to dollars, multiply by 1,1 ).
My (good) health insurance is 163 euro’s a month, with an self-pay limit of 330 euros per year.
Judging by that site, it seems that the average person ( but the agerage seems to be very skewed, the median is better probably) in the US is richer then in the Netherlands. You guys have more stuff, bigger houses. On the other hand, the Better Life index puts the Netherlands ahead of the US: a better work-life balance, more social solidarity and cohesion, and also a better social security safety net that means more peace of mind and less need to accumulate personal wealth. OECD Better Life Index
Actually, I’m kind of amused and relieved that I’m apparently, “materially” poorer then you guys in the US. I honestly thought it was the other way around and I felt vaguely guilty. I still think I live in the country with the better standard of living, but perhaps I’m wrong. It is also a relief to think that most people in other countries, as long as they are not displaced by disasters, will usually feel the same way about the country and place they grew up.
I’d rather be in your situation. Anyone with a health issue, for example, is going to be much better off in the Netherlands. I don’t know a single person who has insurance with that low an out-of-pocket max. Even a minor issue can cost thousands of dollars here. And not many people in a big city have a mortgage that low, even on a condo, let alone a house.
health care is far more expensive here, and you’re never really safe on that front. Even when you’re elderly you could end up in a nursing home and those aren’t covered by medicare.
I’d trade a lower standard of living for more job security and reliable health care.
My premiums + max in-network payment per year is within $100 of the OPs. It’s a little different, as my deductible is higher, but my monthly payments are much lower. Once I meet my deductible everything is covered at 100%.This is employer-sponsored, of course. But I did want to mention it as you said you don’t know a single person.
But yeah, overall $$ does not necessarily equal standard-of-living. Our safety net in the US is non-existent and most people don’t have the health benefits I have. I think folks in the US tend to have more cars than Europeans, but that’s also a by-product of a really horrible mass-transit system in all places other than large cities. It’s cool to have a big house, but honestly - it’s not THAT much cooler than having a modest-but-cozy house. And don’t get me started on our education system.
I think my policy, which is fairly decent (PPO), costs around $700/month, and my employer pays most of it. I pay I think $135 deducted from my paycheck. And that’s with annual deductible of $3500 (my employer self-insures the gap between $1000 and $3500). Copay of $20 for a primary care office visit, $40 for a specialist visit.
Prescription costs vary according to the drug; basic generic drugs have a copay of $10, but brand-name drugs, including ones that don’t have a generic, are $50. Luckily I don’t need any prescription drugs on a regular basis.
LOL no, not by a mile. Obamacare made health insurance available to all, but did nothing for prices, and the current government has eroded the few regulations that did exist. I hear folks all the time talk about premiums being $700-$1000 or more a month, and crazy deductibles like $3000 up to $12000 a year. (I tend to follow diabetic Facebook groups, and it’s uncommon for a day to go by without people posting the details of the insurance prices they’re being quoted for individual insurance, and the numbers are truly staggering).
Premiums that low for Obamacare plans don’t apply to the vast majority of the population. Most people get insurance through their employment, and if you don’t, your income has to be below a certain level to be eligible for reduced-cost insurance coverage. I haven’t had to deal with it myself because I’ve always had employer-based coverage, but here’s some info.
Also, keep in mind that the Obamacare plans sometimes have very narrow networks - you can’t just go see any doctor you want. For example, the good teaching hospital in my hometown doesn’t accept any of the Obamacare plans available in my state. (A good friend of mine has an Obamacare and diabetes and a bunch of other medical issues; he is taking care of his elderly mom and doesn’t have a regular job, and was willing to pay out of pocket for a plan that covered the doctors and hospitals he wanted. It literally wasn’t possible.)
Out of curiosity, how large is your employer? I don’t know a lot of people who work for very large employers; mine is less than 100 people. When I last worked for a large employer (in the tens of thousands of people), we had a plan that covered more, but that’s also over a decade ago now.
My employer also pays a part of my health insurance, I don’t know how much. But anyone with even the smallest of jobs, or on unemployment benefits, gets most of their health insurance paid. It is actually illegal to not have health insurance.
A fast growing group since 2013) is the exception to that rule. Dutch people who are self-employed are supposed to buy their own health insurance and disability /pension insurance, but far to often they don’t and it isn’t enforced. Being self-employed and gettign health insurance costs about 350 euro’s.
Copay for a GP visit is 10 euro’s, for a specialist it is free but you only get to see a specialist with a referral from your GP.
Maastricht, what’s the situation for other safety-net programs? Postsecondary education? State pensions? Health care after retirement? Preschool child care? Elder care?
Even retirees, who get (non-Obamacare) single-payer from the US government must pay a minimum of $135/month. That covers only 80% and does not include drugs. In my case, additional insurance for the 20% and drugs brings my monthly cost to $250 - plus an annual deductible of $2240.
There are drug co-pays that are impossible to predict, so I budget $500/month for healthcare in retirement.
We service members get to enjoy a much different medical insurance program. I certainly can’t complain and have never wished [del]to live in [/del] to be a citizen of another country or felt my quality of life was suffering. I do often work a lot of hours though–much more than 32 hours a week, that’s for sure. But, since my career is a major part of my identity, so I never really have that feeling like I’m trapped in my job. Which is ironic, of course, since I can’t legally quit. Go figure. As for pay, I’m not sure where I stand among Americans, but I think I live comfortably enough. I don’t mind sharing, since my pay is public record. My monthly paycheck is around $8000, of which, I pay $276 in Federal taxes, $285 toward social security and $66 toward Medicare. I pay $0 for full coverage medical insurance with $0 deductible. I have free, full coverage dental, and I pay $11 for my wife. Cleanings are free, and her other deductibles are reasonable; though I’ve never had to use it. I pay $29 a month for $1/2 Million Life Insurance. I get 30 days of paid vacation a year. I own two houses and live in a third that I’m renting. I own three vehicles including a Hellcat. But like you say, to have more money and more things, one must sacrifice time. There are times when I’ve worked 115 hours a week for months at a time.
I have lived and worked in both the Netherlands and the US. My experience with the Netherlands is now nearly 3 decades old, and so suspect. That said:
The things Americans have to pay for out of that bigger paycheck include a far larger share of health insurance, as mentioned, but also college education and retirement.
Specifically, while in-state tuition at a State school can be as low as $16k, the moment you want to look outside that pool, state schools start costing in the low 40’s per year. Private universities are in the 50’s, and some of the top schools (also some not-top schools) can be in the 70’s or higher.
Meaning getting your kids through college can cost between 60 and 300,000. Add books, “fees”, a place to live and add another 40-60,000 per college education.
Retirement is something Americans have to largely pay for out of savings. While some pensions still exist, they are getting about unicorn-level rare. While in Holland, pensions from work are still pretty common. Social security is meant to supplement retirement income. Living off of it is possible for some people in some areas, but it is not comparable to living off AOW in the Netherlands.
So, some or much of the difference in pay is just an accounting difference: many things paid for in the Netherlands by the employer or the government and so don’t make it to the paycheck, are paid to the American and (s)he is then expected to finance those things her/himself.
Middle-class Americans tend to have bigger and more things: cars, houses etc. But the difference between Americans and Northwestern Europeans appears to be declining ( except house and car size).
Europeans have much more vacation time. Also, significantly less pressure to work long hours and to not take all the vacation time they are entitled to.
When you are successful, America is in fact still the land of opportunity- I did better here than I would have had I stayed in Holland. When you are sick, disabled, “different”, uneducated or lacking drive, this is a hard society to make a life in.
But that all said - I have wondered: housing prices in the Netherlands tend to approach 300k Euro on average now. With the stricter mortgage rules, how do people pay for those with an average income of 37k Euro?
And energy costs in Europe are substantial, as well. Not just fuel for the car, but electricity and heating oil. It’s all 2-3 times what I would pay in the states. How do Europeans afford it?? My heating bill alone is 300 Euro a month, and that’s averaging out the year! It’s close to 1000 per month in the winter, and that’s without paying VAT. Similarly, if I paid for fuel at the regular European price, I would not be able to afford to drive anywhere.
AA Pew study has as it’s first graph a comparison of median incomes between the US and western European nations. (That graph is as PPP so it already is controlling for cost off living differences at the national level.) Only Luxemborg is higher but they have an economiy skewed towards international banking and their banking system along with being a tax haven. They’ve had issues with being place on the G20 and EU grey lists because of banking practices that can aid tax evasion and money laundering. Norway isn’t far off but their economy sees a big chunk of revenue from oil dollars. Unless you’re in a money laundering tax haven or petro state European economies don’t provide as much economy to their middle class as the US economy does. Europe has lower income inequality; shares of the pie are more evenly distributed. The US has a pie that’s big enough that even less equal shares of it are bigger for median households.
EU countries tend to have flatter/less progressive tax systems than the US. The US federal system is actually pretty progressive despite lower top marginal rates. Even the defacto regressive taxes(sales and property taxes) that make up a big chunk of US state and local tax codes don’t flatten it as much as many European countries. Part of that is high (and regressive in effect) VAT rates. Part of it is that the high top marginal tax rates tend to kick in at much lower incomes. Comparing US to OECD tax rates for an average (not median) household is illuminating. For an average household income in the US with a lone adult and no children the effective tax rate in the US is 22.7% vs 25.1% for the OECD. That’s not a big difference but for a married couple with two children at the average wage it’s US 10.4% vs OECD 19.6%. That’s a big difference.
For Scandinavian countries (Sweden, Denmark, and Norway) with their lauded social democratic safety net the early kick in of top marginal rates is particularly striking.
Remember that Norway gets a big chunk of tax revenue from their oil industry and still needs to dig that deep into their middle class to afford their system. Also, note that Danish example in the quote is stated by multiplying against the US average. The tax 60% marginal rate actually kicks in at 1.2 times their average rate which is lower middle class for the US because of their lower incomes. In Denmark households that are paying the top marginal tax rate would in the US terms(with kids and at monetary exchange rates) likely still be getting a subsidy under one of our major anti-poverty programs - the Earned Income Tax Credit and associated Child Tax Credit.
Given the realities of most European tax systems, we need to look at median household taxes and not just compare out of pocket expenses for things subsidized by government like health care. The net costs to even middle class households include significant taxes that need to be factored in to truly compare net costs. The tax base among the wealthy simply isn’t big enough to afford those levels of spending.
It’s still possible to make values based judgements and prefer things like structuring labor laws in a way that reduce hours worked and labor productivity. It’s possible to value supporting programs that require taxing everyone more. We shouldn’t approach it with ignorance about where we stand or what it would cost people that aren’t in the top 1% of US income and/or wealth.
Just for the UK / Scotland reference, my healthcare is paid for out of general taxation though I have a top-up private healthcare - for around £100 per month. I’ve never used it, of course. There’s no cost to seeing the doctor, no prescription charges. Seeing a specialist usually requires a referral but if necessary, as happened when my uveitis recurred and I was away from home, you just go to the relevant hospital department and wait to be seen. I don’t have children so I can’t compare there.
I work as a department director over 5 sites located around the world. Two are US based and another is based in the Netherlands. I can tell you the salary difference between the two locations is between 2x and 3x the amount.
Another big difference is that only about 15% of the Dutch who work there own cars, but almost the entire site lives within a 10 minute driving radius. Where the everyone drives to work in the US with some driving over an hour, like its not a big deal. Its just a completely different culture in some aspects.
There’s no cost to seeing the doctor, no prescription charges. Seeing a specialist usually requires a referral but if necessary, as happened when my uveitis recurred and I was away from home, you just go to the relevant hospital department and wait to be seen. I don’t have children so I can’t compare there.