Men Aren't Necessarily Stupid (mild)

[kidchameleon]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Look it up yourself-- this is the fucking Pit and I’m sick of being the only one who bothers ever providing cites, but it’s true. You cannot get permanent certification (called a “professional certification” as of 2004) in NYS unless you have a Masters, and you have to do this within 3 years of getting the job. If you do not get your Masters within 3 years, you lose your cert and therefore your job.

[/QUOTE]

Glad I took your advice, your initial statement is very incorrect. An initial certificate is good for five years, as is the Professional Certificate the follows. Furthermore, it seems that a Masters is not the only way one can get a Permanent Certificate, as the Approved Teacher Preparation Program Pathway shows. A teacher could continue renewing their Professional Certificate every five years without going back for a Masters. The Permanent Certificate appears to be the career direction primarily for administrators, not classroom teachers.

And could you attribute all of your quotes, please?

[Cat_Fight]

[QUOTE=starryspice]
I don’t think anyone here is stamping their feet and saying, “it’s not fair.” I think it takes time for society to accept a shift in gender roles. For example, more companies are starting to provide paternity leave so that the dad can take a couple months off to be with his kid(s); paternity leave would have been ridiculous 40 years ago. For a long time, the US has been all about productivity, working long weeks and getting little or no vacation time. To some extent, this is starting to change, and I hope it continues down that road because, as much as I enjoy working, I don’t think that’s all there is to life for anyone, male or female.
[/QUOTE]

Well said. Really, this notion that things can’t ever change is so ridiculous. Have we no Swedish Dopers?

ETA This whole thread is briningg to mind the number of meetings I’ve been in wherein males bosses expressed worry over hiring women ‘on the mommy track.’ Ugh.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=Cat Fight]
Well said. Really, this notion that things can’t ever change is so ridiculous. Have we no Swedish Dopers?
[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah but this is the US we’re talking about. Gays still can’t serve in the military or get married, and instead of federal laws giving parents maternity & paternity leave, we invent breast pumps so women can get back to work faster. The rest of the world goes for shorter work weeks and more vacation time and in the US, if you admit to only working 40 hours a week you’re a slacker.

[Rubystreak]

@Der Trihs

And why do men make more money ? Mostly, because they don’t take time out on their careers to stay home with the kids, and similar reasons. Not because of some anti-female prejudice.

Yes. I agree. Please show me anywhere where I claimed anti-female prejudice. It’s catsix et al who are claiming anti-male prejudice. I’m saying, families make choices, and often it’s the most logical, biologically and financially sound choice to have the woman stay home. Thus, women’s wages tend to be lower because it affects their work patterns. If the men and women involved in these choices make them freely, there is no victim and no blame to be handed out. As long as women who are not interested in having a family can still earn what they’re entitled to earn, and their wages aren’t being dragged down because of the “mommy track” expectation, there is no problem. The problems are more systemic, and those are the things that oppress people-- long hours away from family for men, hobbled careers for women, to accommodate having kids. It’s not fair to anyone.

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
Glad I took your advice, your initial statement is very incorrect. An initial certificate is good for five years, as is the Professional Certificate the follows. Furthermore, it seems that a Masters is not the only way one can get a Permanent Certificate, as the Approved Teacher Preparation Program Pathway shows
[/quote]

Are you hijacking this thread to rag on me because you lack other interesting things to do with your life? Yeah, thought so. I have no idea why you have a problem with me and are seeking me out for bullshit attacks like this, but apparently you do. Whatever. This attack, as they go, is pretty fucking lame, because… you’re wrong.

You didn’t read the cites you offered very carefully or thoroughly; shame on your reading teacher. The Permanent Certificate is being phased out; as of February 2004, if you aren’t in the process of getting it, you can’t get it (see my cite below-- yours has incomplete data on it and still lists the old cert process, no longer in effect). I have mine, got it right under the wire, so I’m certified for life. That doesn’t happen anymore. The Provisional Cert, which was the first phase leading up to the Permanent, lasted 5 years. But that’s not longer a valid way to get certification.

Now, you have to get the Initial Cert and then the Professional Cert. On your very own cite, which you failed to read:

Initial certificates would be valid for three years, as it says on the cite YOU posted. Not 5 years. That’s the no longer available Provisional Cert. Just like I said. And under the criteria for Professional Cert it say “Masters Degree,” also just like I said. So, your quotes from your own cite were very inaccurate. I can’t believe you came at me, guns blazing, when you were so far off the mark. Good job.

And could you attribute all of your quotes, please?

No.

[Malacandra]

[QUOTE=Algher]
I realize this is the pit, but that is a crass and insulting statement. It implies that stay-at-home moms are a trade down. It is also a slam on male professors as well, which does not bear out with my ancedotal evidence (and an n of > 40 at that).
[/QUOTE]

O noes, someone found something said in the Pit to be crass and insulting! Heat, kitchen, that kinda thing. But in this case no crassness or insult was intended, even though the venue was appropriate. I used “trade down” as an idiom for “marry, shack up with, or otherwise acquire as an SO an individual with lower status and earning power”, which seemed to tally with the following:

@starryspice

The male professors in my department either have stay-at-home wives, or wives who are in a flexible line of work, such as school-teaching. Most female professors in my department have husbands that work in science, or in other competitive jobs,

though you’re welcome to tell me how I should have parsed starryspice’s statement if you want. Having a stay-at-home spouse is not in itself “trading down” within the context of the figure of speech. Having a lower-earning, lower-status spouse is; and a consequence of “trading down” is that you have someone for whom it is feasible to be a SAHS and child-carer, because their impact on the family’s earning power by doing so is so much less. It’s so obvious I don’t get why I have to explain it to a professor.

Indeed, I was not slamming male professors; I was pointing out that in general they are willing to accept a lower-earning spouse and to be the primary breadwinner - rather than seeing their qualifications and status as entitling them to an SO who will be a still higher earner. It’s so obvious… but I repeat myself.

(Of course, you can start out as a high-earner, become a low-earner over the course of a few years, become a parent, and then decide that you’d rather get up early and farm the kid out while you go off to an office job that just about pays for the child care and a sack lunch, and who am I to question?)

[saoirse]

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
Glad I took your advice, your initial statement is very incorrect. An initial certificate is good for five years, as is the Professional Certificate the follows. Furthermore, it seems that a Masters is not the only way one can get a Permanent Certificate, as the Approved Teacher Preparation Program Pathway shows. A teacher could continue renewing their Professional Certificate every five years without going back for a Masters. The Permanent Certificate appears to be the career direction primarily for administrators, not classroom teachers.

And could you attribute all of your quotes, please?
[/QUOTE]

Just for your future reference you don’t want to argue New York State Teacher Cerification policies with a teacher in New York State.

[kidchameleon]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Are you hijacking this thread to rag on me because you lack other interesting things to do with your life? Yeah, thought so. I have no idea why you have a problem with me and are seeking me out for bullshit attacks like this, but apparently you do. Whatever. This attack, as they go, is pretty fucking lame, because… you’re wrong.
[/quote]

What is your fucking problem? Attack? What attack? There was no attack, just your fucking paranoid delusions. You claimed that EVERY TEACHER in NYS had a Masters of Education, which sounded like a stretch to me, so I asked for a cite. You apparently want to make my attempt to fight ignorance into an attack on you. Take your martyrdom elsewhere.

@Rubystreak

You didn’t read the cites you offered very carefully or thoroughly; shame on your reading teacher. The Permanent Certificate is being phased out; as of February 2004, if you aren’t in the process of getting it, you can’t get it (see my cite below-- yours has incomplete data on it and still lists the old cert process, no longer in effect).

Fuck that shit, your cite is from January 2004, I’ll trust the NYS Education Department’s cite from less than a year ago over yours. Hell your cite links to the NYS Education Department’s website.

@Rubystreak

Now, you have to get the Initial Cert and then the Professional Cert. On your very own cite, which you failed to read:

Initial certificates would be valid for three years, as it says on the cite YOU posted. Not 5 years.

Huh? I didn’t post that cite. I posted this which clearly states 5 years. Shame on your reading teacher.

@Rubystreak

That’s the no longer available Provisional Cert. Just like I said. And under the criteria for Professional Cert it say “Masters Degree,” also just like I said.

That’s one option, the other offers a way to get there without a Masters.

@Rubystreak

So, your quotes from your own cite were very inaccurate. I can’t believe you came at me, guns blazing, when you were so far off the mark. Good job.

You really didn’t read my citations, because they plainly agree with what I wrote. I could be wrong, maybe every teacher in NYS does have a Masters in Education, but I doubt it. Your word and a cite from 4 years ago have done little to sway my opinion on the matter.

[EllisDee]

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
I used “trade down” as an idiom for “marry, shack up with, or otherwise acquire as an SO an individual with lower status and earning power”
[/QUOTE]
Seemed like an obvious thing to me too, but even people who agree seem to have been thrown by the phrasing. Consider what catsix wrote in response to the “trade down” comment:

@catsix

If you mean that female professors were as willing to be the sole wage-earner for a situation in which the father stays at home to take care of the kids in the same fashion that male professors are, then ‘trade down’ was probably a poor way of phrasing it.

I do think that a large part of this issue is that there is an incredible double standard regarding stay-at-home parenthood. It is perfectly acceptable for a woman, but a man is often seen as a lazy bum mooching off his wife if the roles are reversed.

Another thing I have noticed is that it is perfectly acceptable for a man to marry a woman who has less education, but in reverse it is often seen as a bad thing. Even in my own family where my mother is more educated than my father, they would both see it as me choosing someone beneath me if I picked a guy who didn’t have at least a bachelor’s degree.

Heh, she wonders about what you really meant by “trade down” in the first paragraph, and then two paragraphs later, seemingly on a tangent, she offers an excellent example of pretty much exactly what you meant in the first place.

[saoirse]

[QUOTE=Ellis Dee]
Seemed like an obvious thing to me too, but even people who agree seem to have been thrown by the phrasing. Consider what catsix wrote in response to the “trade down” comment:Heh, she wonders about what you really meant by “trade down” in the first paragraph, and then two paragraphs later, seemingly on a tangent, she offers an excellent example of pretty much exactly what you meant in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

I think the “trade down” part has nothing to do with stay-at-home-mothers. Unless that’s what the woman is when they start dating.

[catsix]

saoirse said:
I think the “trade down” part has nothing to do with stay-at-home-mothers. Unless that’s what the woman is when they start dating.

Right well, what I was confused about was whether Malacandra was referring to a stay-at-home parent who may have exactly the same education level and formerly a career, or a case in which someone is marrying a person who has significantly less education, and regardless of their actual income level is not in a white-collar profession where degrees are required, such as say being a carpenter.

While my parents (even as a living example of the latter) would be somewhat … disappointed if I married say, a mechanic, they would have much less issue with me marrying an engineer and then having him take 5 years off to be home with a kid who wasn’t yet school aged.

Not that there will be any kids, but that’s how their attitudes of ‘marrying down’ play out.

[Malacandra]

[QUOTE=catsix]
Right well, what I was confused about was whether Malacandra was referring to a stay-at-home parent who may have exactly the same education level and formerly a career, or a case in which someone is marrying a person who has significantly less education, and regardless of their actual income level is not in a white-collar profession where degrees are required, such as say being a carpenter.

While my parents (even as a living example of the latter) would be somewhat … disappointed if I married say, a mechanic, they would have much less issue with me marrying an engineer and then having him take 5 years off to be home with a kid who wasn’t yet school aged.

Not that there will be any kids, but that’s how their attitudes of ‘marrying down’ play out.
[/QUOTE]

Looks like we’re on the same page then.

I personally do not think it would be a bad world if employment and childcare were both utterly gender-blind, and any given couple could choose who was going to be the SAHP based on no factors other than what their personal preferences in the matter were. I also am not convinced that this world actually does exist, or can be wished into being merely by saying “Make it so”.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
You claimed that EVERY TEACHER in NYS had a Masters of Education,
[/quote]

No, I said they had a Masters. There are several different kinds, not all are MSEd.

Take your martyrdom elsewhere.

Will you take your hijack elsewhere? Nope, didn’t think so. Do you think anyone but you gives a rat’s ass about this topic? No, but you still feel like you have to be right here when, so sorry, you aren’t. NYS teachers must eventually get a Masters to remain certified. That’s a fact and all your bitchery ain’t gonna change it.

Fuck that shit, your cite is from January 2004, I’ll trust the NYS Education Department’s cite from less than a year ago over yours. Hell your cite links to the NYS Education Department’s website.

Maybe they changed the initial cert from 3 years to 5. That must be a recent change. It doesn’t concern me personally how long new teachers take get their certification, and when NYS changes these things, I no longer pay attention. However, I am still right about the Masters being required.

That’s one option, the other offers a way to get there without a Masters.

All the pathways listed on the page for the higher level certification require a Masters degree UNLESS you already hold a valid NYS teaching certificate in another area, and this is another cert on top of that, which would mean you already had a Masters. The “Approved Teacher Preparation Program Path” that you listed doesn’t mention the Masters, but if you click on NYS Inventory of Registered Programs, you will see that all the programs that end in a Professional Teaching Certification are Masters programs. The path takes you through your Bachelors, through your Masters, to the certficate.

I have student teachers every year. They believe that they all have to get Masters to get the Professional Certification. Unless you are right and they are wrong… nah, I don’t think so.

Your word and a cite from 4 years ago have done little to sway my opinion on the matter.

That cite is from when the whole thing changed over from the Permanent Cert to the Professional Cert. I have had little interest in the minutiae of the certification process, as it no longer applies to me. It seems that they changed the Initial Cert from 3 to 5 years, probably because so many people without Masters were finding it fucking impossible to get their Masters done in 3 years while also working full-time, and those people were getting decertified and therefore fired. Cool. But you still need to have a Masters to get the Professional Cert, as you did to get the Permanent Cert back when I was doing it. A thorough perusal of your cites still shows that.

[kidchameleon]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
No, I said they had a Masters. There are several different kinds, not all are MSEd.

Will you take your hijack elsewhere? Nope, didn’t think so.
[/quote]

Don’t go after that Randi prize just yet. Step over here .