Men Aren't Necessarily Stupid (mild)

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
At some point, doesn’t this sort of thinking have to go away?
[/QUOTE]
You’d think, but it’s actually pretty well ingrained and subtly influential. I’m not sure it’s so much “gay” necessarily as less than manly, although the leaving a seat thing may be. But in terms of being Mr. Mom, well, it’s kind of right there in the label.

Mothers and fathers both shape children into gender expected roles, and I don’t know if there are more such subtle rules for men or women. I do know that the ones for men are pretty hard to break, and not always logical. It isn’t like women don’t do a great deal to reinforce these expectations among their cohort as well.

I’m pretty well educated, sensitive and liberal, and I still have a hard time using an umbrella without thinking twice about it when I’m walking by myself! I cannot briefly carry a woman’s purse for her without holding it with two fingers, well away from my body. I don’t consciously think - OMG, what will someone think. It just doesn’t feel right to do otherwise. My neighbor gives me a hard time if he sees my wife mowing the lawn. Hell, a female neighbor even gave me trouble because my male dog doesn’t lift his leg when he pees!

[wonky]

[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
I don’t consciously think - OMG, what will someone think.
[/QUOTE]

If there were no way anyone could see you, would you still be bothered?

I just think that’s fascinating and completely different from my own experiences. There are things I don’t particularly want to do, but I can’t think of anything that strikes me as kind of equivalently masculine.

Of course, I’m not very girly, so that probably affects things.

[Justin_Bailey]

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
One of the ones that made me laugh the hardest was in a conversation a ways back on another message board (or maybe usenet) where men left seats between themselves and their friends at movie theaters so that no one would think they were a couple (!)
[/QUOTE]

This seems to be one of sitcom jokes (it actually appeared on Seinfeld at least once) that I believe has no basis in reality. I have never met anyone who believes this or ever observed any men doing this in a theater.

Except if the theater is almost empty and the two guys want to stretch out across three seats.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
If there were no way anyone could see you, would you still be bothered?
[/quote]
Well, probably in the same way that you feel if you try walking without swinging your arms, or swinging them together rather than independently. You can do it, but it just kind of feels weird. Eventually, I’m sure, I’d get used to it, until an idiot neighbor said something.

[wonky]

[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
Well, probably in the same way that you feel if you try walking without swinging your arms, or swinging them together rather than independently. You can do it, but it just kind of feels weird. Eventually, I’m sure, I’d get used to it, until an idiot neighbor said something.
[/QUOTE]

I stick my hands in my pockets all the time, so I often walk without swinging my arms. But yeah, I understand what you mean.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=catsix]
Probably because the presence of crying babies tends to be distracting during meetings and makes it difficult for an office to function?
[/quote]

Wouldn’t it be cool if workplaces had daycare for families who have kids? Men and women both could use this option. I bet it’s cheaper than a valued employee having to take a 6 month leave of absence, let alone having to take years out of an otherwise thriving career. Childcare costs, from what I hear from my friends, are quite high.

I do think that a large part of this issue is that there is an incredible double standard regarding stay-at-home parenthood. It is perfectly acceptable for a woman, but a man is often seen as a lazy bum mooching off his wife if the roles are reversed.

I think that sucks. However, there’s another compelling reason, beside social stereotypes and biology, that women stay home. Men still make more money, so it’s often cheaper for the woman to take time out of her career to stay home.

Another thing I have noticed is that it is perfectly acceptable for a man to marry a woman who has less education, but in reverse it is often seen as a bad thing. Even in my own family where my mother is more educated than my father, they would both see it as me choosing someone beneath me if I picked a guy who didn’t have at least a bachelor’s degree.

My husband has a high school diploma. I have two Masters degrees. You are only a victim of these expectations if you allow yourself to be.

Welcome to adulthood, where if you get a choice it all it’s between shitty and shittier.

Yeah, I’ve been here in adulthood for decades without you around to welcome me to it. My point is, men don’t have it any worse than women, just different bullshit.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=starryspice]
I’m not saying that I think it’s a male conspiracy, but it’s also definitely not that “women simply don’t want to compete for those jobs.” I’m more knowledgeable in the land of academia rather than CEOs, but in grad school, it’s 50/50 male and female. Clearly, the women in my department are interested in science and I’ve heard just as many women as men express interest in being a future professor. In post-docs and professorships, though, the ratio of females to males quickly goes down and the primary reason is not the competitiveness, it’s the lack of childcare options and the lack of the flexibility that is required to be a mom and a professional. The male professors in my department either have stay-at-home wives, or wives who are in a flexible line of work, such as school-teaching. Most female professors in my department have husbands that work in science, or in other competitive jobs, and I honestly don’t know how they do it aside from hiring nannies or daycare.
[/quote]
It’s not just a lack of child care optons. If you want to breastfeed for six months then you do. Pure and simple. I don’t see any way you can be a cop or firefighter or soldier or airline pilot or scuba diver or off-shore oil rigger while carrying a baby around. I really don’t think there’s a breastfeeding for six months child care option for you.

Exactly. For whatever reason, breastfeeding is not acceptable in professional situations. There used to be a time when women worked and breastfed at the same time and nobody thought anything of it (e.g. hunter-gatherer period, there may be more recent examples) but since that is not currently possible, that becomes an obstacle to working, which (imho) is ridiculous.

For what it’s worth, my objection to breastfeeding in a professional environment isn’t that I can see your boob. It’s the infant you’re going to have with you all day if you want to breastfeed. The reason people don’t bring their puppies and kittens to work is because it would be really disruptive.

[saoirse]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I think that sucks. However, there’s another compelling reason, beside social stereotypes and biology, that women stay home. Men still make more money, so it’s often cheaper for the woman to take time out of her career to stay home.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure this is true, once you adjust for people who don’t have to worry about childcare. That is, it’s kind of a circular argument to say that women make less because they have to take care of their children, but men can’t take care of the children because women make less.

[QUOTE=catsix]
I do think that a large part of this issue is that there is an incredible double standard regarding stay-at-home parenthood. It is perfectly acceptable for a woman, but a man is often seen as a lazy bum mooching off his wife if the roles are reversed.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, if the woman is a high earner, the husband will be seen as a sensitive, intelligent individual willing to defy traditional gender roles. If the family is not well-off, then he’s a bum.

[Algher]

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
It’s not just a lack of child care optons. If you want to breastfeed for six months then you do. Pure and simple. I don’t see any way you can be a cop or firefighter or soldier or airline pilot or scuba diver or off-shore oil rigger while carrying a baby around. I really don’t think there’s a breastfeeding for six months child care option for you.

For what it’s worth, my objection to breastfeeding in a professional environment isn’t that I can see your boob. It’s the infant you’re going to have with you all day if you want to breastfeed. The reason people don’t bring their puppies and kittens to work is because it would be really disruptive.
[/QUOTE]

Woman can pump out the breastmilk for those 6 months. All they need is a private place with electricity, and a small fridge to store it. They then give that milk to the day care worker (husband, grandma, illegal nanny, large day care center) to feed to their kids while they are at work. That provides the health benefits to both the children and the mother.

[levdrakon]

[QUOTE=Algher]
Woman can pump out the breastmilk for those 6 months. All they need is a private place with electricity, and a small fridge to store it. They then give that milk to the day care worker (husband, grandma, illegal nanny, large day care center) to feed to their kids while they are at work. That provides the health benefits to both the children and the mother.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds doable, but I have a very strong feeling a lot of women would say “screw that.”

So they stay home for six months. Maybe six months becomes a year. Or two. Or three. Then they have another kid. It happens.

Thing is, if women can’t compete equally in all fields, we can’t expect them to make as much money on average. Women tend to cluster in lower risk, safer and perhaps more “child friendly” fields so the only way we can make women earn equal amounts on average would be to pay them more for the same work men are already doing in those same fields. That’d go over like hemorrhoids on a hot day.

[catsix]

Rubystreak said:
Wouldn’t it be cool if workplaces had daycare for families who have kids? Men and women both could use this option. I bet it’s cheaper than a valued employee having to take a 6 month leave of absence, let alone having to take years out of an otherwise thriving career. Childcare costs, from what I hear from my friends, are quite high.

I assume that the people who want to use this workplace daycare would be paying for it, would they not? Or do you intend it to effectively be a salary increase for having a kid?

Yeah, I’ve been here in adulthood for decades without you around to welcome me to it. My point is, men don’t have it any worse than women, just different bullshit.

Funny then, how much time you spend stamping your feet and screaming that you just don’t get treated fairly because you’re female. I thought ‘It’s not fair!’ was typically left behind along with the pacifier and the blankey.

[kidchameleon]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
In NYS, all teachers have to have a Masters degree in education, and child psychology is covered, so it’s not like they have no training in dealing with all kinds of kids.
[/QUOTE]

Huh? Every teacher in NYS has a Masters? Someone get me a cite!

[starryspice]

[QUOTE=catsix]
I assume that the people who want to use this workplace daycare would be paying for it, would they not? Or do you intend it to effectively be a salary increase for having a kid?
[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of places that have subsidized daycare. Harvard University is one of them. That’s a salary increase in the same way that any job benefit is. For example, my husband gets dental insurance through work but rarely uses it. I’m sure some other employees do use it.

[QUOTE=levdrakon]

Sounds doable, but I have a very strong feeling a lot of women would say "screw that.
[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of women who don’t say “screw it,” regardless of your strong feeling. Several universities have recently instituted a policy of having a lactation room available on campus for these women. A lactation room has to be private, include a refrigerator and not be in a bathroom. The requirements are not insurmountably great. Yet, while some universities are instituting this, there are many more that are not. (I’m not sure what the situation is in the corporate world, it might be better.)

I disagree with your assertion that women can’t compete equally in all fields. Certainly, fields such as fire-fighting, oil-rigging, etc. are not conducive to child-raising. But the majority of the jobs in the US are not physically dangerous, although they might be competitive. Most people work in business/corporate, in a cubicle or in a corner office. If workplace options such as lactation rooms and daycare are available, there’s no reason why women shouldn’t be competitive with men.

[QUOTE=catsix]

Funny then, how much time you spend stamping your feet and screaming that you just don’t get treated fairly because you’re female. I thought ‘It’s not fair!’ was typically left behind along with the pacifier and the blankey.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone here is stamping their feet and saying, “it’s not fair.” I think it takes time for society to accept a shift in gender roles. For example, more companies are starting to provide paternity leave so that the dad can take a couple months off to be with his kid(s); paternity leave would have been ridiculous 40 years ago. For a long time, the US has been all about productivity, working long weeks and getting little or no vacation time. To some extent, this is starting to change, and I hope it continues down that road because, as much as I enjoy working, I don’t think that’s all there is to life for anyone, male or female.

[Algher]

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Sounds doable, but I have a very strong feeling a lot of women would say “screw that.”

So they stay home for six months. Maybe six months becomes a year. Or two. Or three. Then they have another kid. It happens.

Thing is, if women can’t compete equally in all fields, we can’t expect them to make as much money on average. Women tend to cluster in lower risk, safer and perhaps more “child friendly” fields so the only way we can make women earn equal amounts on average would be to pay them more for the same work men are already doing in those same fields. That’d go over like hemorrhoids on a hot day.
[/QUOTE]

More and more do it every day, and there is a thriving business in selling and renting breast pumps. The biggest impediment to wider adoption is the lack of places to pump and store while at work. Yes, some women stay home for a bit, but as the percentage of working mothers grows, and we should not ignore the health benefits to mother and child from using breast milk.

The salary bit I already commented on. Job selections are also an issue, especially since many of the most dangerous positions also require significant upper body strenght.

[Algher]

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Sounds doable, but I have a very strong feeling a lot of women would say “screw that.”

So they stay home for six months. Maybe six months becomes a year. Or two. Or three. Then they have another kid. It happens.

Thing is, if women can’t compete equally in all fields, we can’t expect them to make as much money on average. Women tend to cluster in lower risk, safer and perhaps more “child friendly” fields so the only way we can make women earn equal amounts on average would be to pay them more for the same work men are already doing in those same fields. That’d go over like hemorrhoids on a hot day.
[/QUOTE]

More and more do it every day, and there is a thriving business in selling and renting breast pumps. The biggest impediment to wider adoption is the lack of places to pump and store while at work. Yes, some women stay home for a bit, but as the percentage of working mothers grows, and we should not ignore the health benefits to mother and child from using breast milk.

The salary bit I already commented on. Job selections are also an issue, especially since many of the most dangerous positions also require significant upper body strenght.

[cher3]

catsix, I haven’t seen too many workplaces that provide onsite or nearby daycare, but among those that have, yes, the employees that use them do pay for the service. The advantage is less travel time, ability to do things like nurse on lunch or breaks, and lower cost, since the daycare doesn’t need to turn a profit. Interestingly, both places I’ve seen onsite daycare have been connected with the medical profession, where there is a high proporition of highly trained women in the workforce.

Our alternative has been for both of us to take lower profile jobs than we might otherwise be qualified for. We make more than enough to justify the expense of daycare, but have enough flexibility that both of us can get away for the occasional classroom event or concert. My kids probably see less of me than they would if I stayed at home, but they probably see more of their dad than they would if he were in a more prestigious job.

One phenomenon I’ve seen in our area is dads doing the primary daytime childcare, but doing it while running some type of business from home. Several moms run businesses as well (e.g., graphic design). I think it’s just getting easier to find alternatives to the traditional mom-at-home, dad-at-the-office-all-day routine, if you are motivated to do so.

[Justin_Bailey]

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
Huh? Every teacher in NYS has a Masters? Someone get me a cite!
[/QUOTE]

No cite, but this is true. When I was in high school, several teachers of mine took whole years off to get their Master’s because it’s a job requirement.

Funnily enough, a ton of my classmates are now in graduate school finishing their Master’s because of the same requirement. There are practically enough teachers in my high school class to stock our own high school.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
Huh? Every teacher in NYS has a Masters? Someone get me a cite!
[/QUOTE]

Look it up yourself-- this is the fucking Pit and I’m sick of being the only one who bothers ever providing cites, but it’s true. You cannot get permanent certification (called a “professional certification” as of 2004) in NYS unless you have a Masters, and you have to do this within 3 years of getting the job. If you do not get your Masters within 3 years, you lose your cert and therefore your job.

I assume that the people who want to use this workplace daycare would be paying for it, would they not? Or do you intend it to effectively be a salary increase for having a kid?

Pay for it, sure, but it’s still better than daycare elsewhere because you can drop the kid off and pick him up exactly when you get off work; you can stop in during your breaks, breast feed, and check up. I’m sure productivity would increase.

Funny then, how much time you spend stamping your feet and screaming that you just don’t get treated fairly because you’re female. I thought ‘It’s not fair!’ was typically left behind along with the pacifier and the blankey.

catsix? You’re the one stamping your feet and saying that men’s roles aren’t fair because society “expects” certain things from them, while ignoring and minimizing everything that society and biology still expect from women. Boo fucking hoo. As I said, things are tough all over.

[Algher]

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
Huh? Every teacher in NYS has a Masters? Someone get me a cite!
[/QUOTE]

OTI : NYSED

General requirements for the Permanent certificate include:

Possession of a valid Provisional certificate in the same title.

Completion of two years of teaching experience in a public or nonpublic school, in the same category (administrative/supervisory, pupil personnel service, classroom teaching).

An earned Master’s degree from a regionally accredited institution of higher education.

Qualifying scores on the NYSTCE tests if required for the certificate. For any questions about the New York State Teacher Certification Exams, including the ATS-Performance Test (Video), go to www.nystce.nesinc.com .

[Der_Trihs]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
However, there’s another compelling reason, beside social stereotypes and biology, that women stay home. Men still make more money, so it’s often cheaper for the woman to take time out of her career to stay home.
[/QUOTE]
And why do men make more money ? Mostly, because they don’t take time out on their careers to stay home with the kids, and similar reasons. Not because of some anti-female prejudice.