No. As I mentioned, I think these guys are already poisoned to the things that would most help them. But that doesn’t mean we can’t look at their complaints and see if they have any validity. We can also ask if the existence of groups like MGTOW points to deeper problems that need to be fixed.
Any group like this is going to have a list of grievances, for which they come up with explanations as to why things are the way they are, and finally some proposed solutions. Here, we can easily say that their views on explanations and solutions are mostly invalid. However, the grievances may still be legitimate, and that can point to real solutions.
I understand some of their complaints are valid but it is possible to look at their complaints while simultaneously disregarding them and their movement as being idiots and misogynists. Why do you want to defend them instead of just saying well, when they say men are ridiculed on sitcoms, I agree, maybe we should look at that…
And that would be great if that’s what MGTOW was actually doing. But, looking at their actual materials, MGTOW seems to be playing up the idea of “forging an independent path” to the public (well, as much public is looking at them) while their actual internal materials are just a bunch of old fashioned women-bashing with an extra whiney spin. Again, nearly every content related post currently on the front page of their forum is simple woman-bashing.
Few hate-based groups just come out and say “we mostly want to hate on group X”. Almost all of them say “Oh us? We are just concerned about heritage and pride and apple pies!”
Yes, the grievances may still be legitimate. As with all grievances, they require the right framing. I think, based on this thread, that they aren’t doing the heavy lifting of such framing, to separate out the kooky from the valid. I’m not sure how much heavy lifting I really feel like doing for them, if their response to me would be to tell me how much women suck and that feminism is the root of all, or any, of their problems.
So you would disagree with one of the above posters who just felt it was a support group?
Read my posts again–that’s exactly what I’ve done.
To the extent that I’ve defended anyone, it’s “basement dwelling losers without a girlfriend”, not MGTOW members specifically. There are lots of basement dwelling losers around and not all of them are misogynists. It bugs me somewhat when people dismiss opinions on that basis alone. Yes, MGTOW members are assholes. But they grew out of a larger group of losers, and those losers have some legitimate complaints.
That is actually one of the things I heavily agreed with on this post. Not that MGTOW is an effective support group but the idea that unsuccessful white males don’t have much to turn to as a support group.
Look, I am not as critical of your posts as other people maybe are being but at the same time it does seem to me that you are defending MGTOW just a little bit too much.
I think that’s at least somewhat true. Men in a lot of ways get the short end of the socialization support stick, and many men and many women try to keep men in pretty unsupported and unfulfilled positions.
If they were actually concerned about solving those problems, they’d surely take an approach that is more constructive than page after page of “Are there only two types of women- Casey Anthony or Jodi Arias?” (actual thread).
They are not interested in these issues. They are interested in pretending to be interested in these issues so that they can point to them when they get criticized. Just like the KKK will claim up and down that they are not a hate group, they are just proud of their heritage and fighting for a better America.
No group, no matter how despicable, doesn’t have at least one kind of vaguely legitimate point buried somewhere in there. I’m sure southern whites had some genuine complaints during reconstruction. But once you choose to form a hate-based group, you’ve chosen to give up legitimacy.
Any of these guys can join any of the many, many groups out there addressing these issues in a constructive manner. They choose not to do that, and instead choose with their limited spare time and out of their own free will to join a group focused on stuff like “Are all American women just trifling bitches?” (Actual thread- and I’m not digging to hard to find these).
So, no, we don’t have to pretend to engage them on some kind of higher level just because they exist and can, when pressed, mumble a few words with some distant grain of truth.
Absolutely. They aren’t doing themselves any favors at all with their message. If they had simply limited it to a “go your own way” thing, it would be fine, but they decided to mix in a whole lot of misogyny and other unpleasant stuff.
For some definition, yeah, they’re just a support group that uses hate for catharsis.
Again, I don’t care about these guys specifically. It’s the reasons behind their existence that interest me. Just like how I don’t care about the excuses of some guy that robbed my house. Throw the book at him–fuck him. But I do wonder what led to the creation of the criminal, whether it was economic factors, a breakdown of family life, or whatever. And for that I might need to listen to the criminal at least a little bit, even though I don’t think I owe him anything.
I don’t think he is defending Mg tow at all, in all of his posts what I have gotten out of it is that he trying to call attention to a problem that MGtow is simply a symptom of.
I have been pretty fortunate in this area but having worked with addicts, alcoholics and ex convicts the past 25 years it is pretty evident to me that men are experiencing a problem when it comes to feeling like viable men. Some over compensate, some under compensate, most just struggle through life.
A large part of mans mating strategy evolves around status. How he perceives himself is possibly more important than the status he has actually acquired. We don't have to be the top stallion, all we have to do is demonstrate that we are successful. It doesn't even have to be financial success. It may be social, athletic, artistic, scholastic, most anything. Modern society seems to be lacking in opportunities for men to demonstrate the ability to be successful.
Why is this limited to men, though? People are pointing out that saying that men on the whole are doing well leaves out the men who aren’t. But it’s just as easy to point out that not every woman is doing well, either. In fact, the vast majority of people, throughout history, have probably felt unable to demonstrate success. I think the difference is that the MGTOW guys seem to think they deserve or need something more. So, OK. Go out and do something.
I don’t think there is a lack of opportunity for success, I think older gender roles are no longer acceptable and some men have trouble adjusting to that. Not, they are bad people fighting change, no, I mean, they just have trouble adjusting. It is a unfortunate situation but you can’t delay progress just to appease the stragglers.
Sure. But there’s some value in asking how not to create more of these guys.
Here, I’ll go full Godwin. Do you think it’s possible to talk about the Treaty of Versailles without it turning into accusations of Nazi sympathy?
I’d still shoot a Nazi in the face, but at the same time I can wonder if a treaty that destroyed their economy was really the wisest move for anyone. It was too late to do much about it by the time the Nazis came to power, but when it was done with we decided to rebuild Germany and Japan instead of imposing more sanctions and debts. The nerve! And yet we don’t seem to have any more Nazis, so maybe it worked out.
I’m pretty sure that MGTOW aren’t nearly as bad as the Nazis, so I guess I wouldn’t shoot them in the face. But I definitely don’t want any more of them around, so maybe it’s worth figuring out what their problem is.
I know I am opening myself up to open fire but I do understand ‘what their problem is’ or at least I think so. I was in a relationship for 7 years to an extremely strong willed woman at her insistence and then we were married for another ten years before we got divorced. We were never equal partners. She controlled everything down to the smallest details. I was domestically abused physically and even called the police over it but they obviously didn’t do anything. There is no such thing as wife on husband domestic abuse in their eyes even when you can barely breath because of ribs that she cracked by punting you while you were sleeping. She refused to ever show up before 10 pm even when we had children under 1 and it often wasn’t before 3 or 4 am. Work was always the most important thing and when she wasn’t doing it domestically, she was on another continent with hardly any explanation.
The only good thing we got out of the whole mess was my daughters who I love more than anything in the entire world. I have gone on dates with 30 or 40 women since I got divorced and liked most of them to some degree but I quickly realized that I don’t have much to offer them on their terms. I am not going to jeopardize my financial future over any infatuation and I am also not going to be a step-parent. My own children come first and second. The best anyone else can hope for is third place and I can’t see anyone ponying up for that race.
I honestly think marriage is a very bad and risky deal for the vast majority of men today. There is very little upside except for kids if you want them and the downsides are both long-term and extreme. I will never do it again personally. That isn’t a bitter statement because you can only learn such things by experience. It is just the results of a cost/benefit analysis that I learned too late.
That said, being a single white male in your 40’s is about the sweetest deal possible. I always tell people that it is like Christmas morning every single day. You can do whatever you want without anyone telling you what to do or how to do it. I don’t mean that completely. I still have a professional job and parenting to do but yo get a level of autonomy that is completely alien to most married men.
From reading this thread, it seems to me that their problem is generalizing their own problems into universal problems. There are horrible marriages, which does not mean a majority of marriages are horrible. Men being abused in a marriage one way or another no more means that most men are worse off married than women being abused - though women have more economic data showing they can be worse off.
In both cases it can spill over into hatred of the opposite sex.
How is that anything but you staying in a dysfunctional relationship too long? And how EXACTLY is that on anyone but you? If societal pressure keeps you ten years in a bad relationship that seems to me more about your weak nature than society at large.
After all, men successfully build relationships after bad experiences all the time. Men become step parents routinely. No one is saying we expect you to do so, but surely choosing not to take those risks is on you and no one else.
Everybody slightly public gets threats. I like how Dawkins handled them. Stupid obnoxious people get them too. Case in point: me, I get them too from posting on liberal boards like this one. It’s like because she receives threats that somehow make her points right. Too bad she gets threatened and called insulting names, but she’s still stupid and wrong. And Dawkins is till obnoxious too.
That is definitely part of the problem. In a way, though, I think they haven’t fully rejected their societal conditioning. Suppose they start with the axiom that all Real Men get married. They then discover that marriage doesn’t work out for them. They can’t admit that marriage isn’t for them–that would go against the axiom. So they instead conclude that all marriage sucks, and is a total sham, so that they can preserve some dignity and pretend that they’re still Real Men.
A better conclusion would be that marriage is the best option for some people and bachelorhood is the best option for others. No moral judgments or failings required. Of course it would be nice if more people could figure out in advance which category they belonged to and a avoid lot of problems.
Given the falling marriage rates, this trend seems to be happening already, so maybe there’s nothing to do but wait.