Men going their own way (MGTOW)

[LinusK]

@Slithy_Tove

I suppose I’m a target demographic for MGTOW. A while back I ran through some of the 10-20 minute spiels on YouTube. Some funny, some good points on topics that generally get no consideration elsewhere, and some “wow, this guy has really rolled off into the weeds of wrong conclusions.”

I also look in at Jezebel. I don’t see general man-bashing there, just legit calling individual guys on their individual sexist bullshit. Sometime that goes wrong, too. They piled-on during shirtgate, and the Virginia rape hoax.

Anyway, one day after listening to some MGTOW uploads, I had to do my grocery shopping. I looked at the women at the store, and I just couldn’t see the same people that were being described in the MGTOW talks. I saw people who aren’t saints or goddesses; plainly self-absorbed and incurious as normal people are. But not evil bitches either.

From my largely dissapointing experiences with online dating, I looked at the women; the ones I shared the same age group, income bracket and equitable hotness level as people who nonetheless have more options in the dating world than me. I’m not going to argue that with you. It’s true. And I can’t blame anyone who takes the opportunities that are open to them in life. I certainly try to do so with the ones open to me.

But of course I have feelings that are more accurately called regrets not resentments, because it’s not about “dating” for its own sake. We want to find someone we love and loves us back. I’m not a loser for wanting that. And out of 40, 80, 160 people, how many realistically will that be possible? I don’t know. I don’t think the numbers imbalance applies on that point, though.

I do think both the patriarchy, as it ever existed, and feminism, for whatever its goals, have both so far failed men. As a history nerd, I keep with Charles Martel’s invention of chivalry as a reconciliation between Christanity and the martial spirit: we are bound to protect the weak, and we should not accept insult. Unfortunately, it’s the human condition to use the amount of shit you give others as a proof of the shit you don’t take yourself.

Finally, I think of something I experienced 30 years ago that shows how I can’t change: I’ve known a few people who’ve killed other people, all men who’ve killed other men. But the one person I’ve known who killed a woman was a 14 year old boy at a residential treatment home where I worked.

His adult brother had been in prison, and his foster mom had tried to cut him off as a bad influence. But like a lot of younger brother he idolized his brother. He and she fought, and it ended with him jamming the barrel of a shotgun under her chin. The last thing she said before he pulled the trigger was “I love you, Tim.”

I don’t think anyone on earth has a philosophy that can explain how I feel about that.

I don’t have a lot to say about this, but you wrote a lot, and you wrote honestly, so I feel like I should. You’re not a loser for wanting to love somebody who loves you back. It’s unfortunately one of the double-standards of our time that if a woman says she can’t find a man, it’s because “There’s no good men out there.” If a man does the same thing, he’s labeled a “loser.”

If I can offer some MGTOW advice: women date up. They’re looking for a man with higher status than their own (whether that’s money, degrees, or whatever). If you’re looking for a woman to date, and to have a positive experience with, date “down”. Look for women who have less status, money, education, or whatever. The fact that a woman, for whatever reason, has had fewer advantages in life is no reason to reject her. It’s worth a shot. If it doesn’t work, you’re no worse off than you were before. But whatever you do, don’t date a woman who self-identifies as a feminist.

[Little_Nemo]

@jsgoddess

Yes, and racism is the same way. If you want the order that comes from Group A being on top, Group B below that, and Group C below that, and Group D… then certainly you will hate or resent members of Groups B, C, and D if they are above you.

So, is that what’s going on with the MGTOW fellows? Because if it is, that’s really a case where they just have to lump it. No one owes them top dog status.

@Boyo_Jim

That’s what they seem to believe. And if you accept that white mailes are today at the bottom of the social ladder and are being actively discriminated against, then they have a point.

But they don’t.

I agree. These guys are living in a world that’s biased in their favor and they’re unhappy because the world used to be overwhelmingly biased in their favor.

[Little_Nemo]

@LinusK

If you’re looking for a woman to date, and to have a positive experience with, date “down”.

That explains why MGTOW’s are having dating problems. They’re looking “down” and discovering that nobody’s lower than them.

[wonky]

@Little_Nemo

I agree. These guys are living in a world that’s biased in their favor and they’re unhappy because the world used to be overwhelmingly biased in their favor.

Just to be clear, I’m not claiming that they are doing that, just that if they are, they don’t have my sympathy. I think it’s possible they are not doing that and are just confused.

[you_with_the_face]

@DigitalC

When we see TEA party activists complaining about being “taxed enough already” during a period of historically low taxes we make fun of them. When they complain about government healthcare while on medicaid we make fun of them. When Christians complain about being persecuted in America we make fun of them. Not because we refuse to learn anything about the topic but because we have learned about the topic and their moronic complaints are not just simply wrong, but the complete factual opposite of reality. When you complain about how bad men have it with regards to rape accusations when the reality is that you can literally dedicate your life to raping women and the chances of you being tried and convicted are miniscule you should expect nothing but mockery. Mockery is the correct response to entitled whining of privileged classes complaining things are not as good as they used to be.

I think this sums up my view as well.

Perhaps humans are inherently driven to want everything to be even-stevens, such that we think “If group X gets to complain about injustice and be taken seriously, then my group should also be able to complain and be taken seriously!” But that isn’t the case in reality. If you’re asserting victimization that doesn’t pass the smell test, then why should anyone take you seriously? You should expect to be ignored.

I do think sexism is damaging to men, but not in the ways that MRA types seem to focus on. For instance, rarely do I hear men criticize how often the media portrays males as violent, emotionally unavailable, and unable to maintain healthy relationships with others. Masculinity in our entertainment media often comes packaged in characters that are ambitious, socially uninhibited, powerful, fearless, antisocial, and reckless. When that is what you’re raised with seeing all of your life, of course you’re going to feel pressured to conform. And when you can’t conform–or when conforming leads to consequences that don’t match up with your expectations–then it will be a source of disillusionment. Women aren’t just looking for strong, silent types who function only as breadwinners. They are looking for partners who aren’t above wiping some butts and baking a chicken. This is what masculinity today has become, not just the macho stuff of yesteryear.

Women have been complaining about their depictions in the media for years. And there has been some progress due to these complaints. Men should also take a critical look at how they are depicted. The pressure to be at the top of the heap largely comes from how we define masculinity in a patriarchical society. Make patriarchy the thing that needs to be challenged–not women–and then perhaps there will be less angst.

[LinusK]

@LinusK

I don’t have a lot to say about this, but you wrote a lot, and you wrote honestly, so I feel like I should. You’re not a loser for wanting to love somebody who loves you back. It’s unfortunately one of the double-standards of our time that if a woman says she can’t find a man, it’s because “There’s no good men out there.” If a man does the same thing, he’s labeled a “loser.”

If I can offer some MGTOW advice: women date up. They’re looking for a man with higher status than their own (whether that’s money, degrees, or whatever). If you’re looking for a woman to date, and to have a positive experience with, date “down”. Look for women who have less status, money, education, or whatever. The fact that a woman, for whatever reason, has had fewer advantages in life is no reason to reject her. It’s worth a shot. If it doesn’t work, you’re no worse off than you were before. But whatever you do, don’t date a woman who self-identifies as a feminist.

I wanted to add something to that. Dating, initially, is about you as a product. You should make every effort to be the best person you can be, according to you. And you should present yourself honestly and sincerely. If you do that, and you’re rejected, it’s a good thing. It means the woman wasn’t the right woman for you, anyway.

[Slithy_Tove]

Thank you for acknowledging. But my point, typically obscure, is that however one may be ripe to its appeal, any philosophy will let the devotee down. I could just as easily see the same injustices and become a staunch Communist. Or Femminist.

I don’t feel unreservedly positive about the men’s rights movement. But I do feel bad for what guys are up against in this world. Reading this thread, I think I have plenty of company in the former, but sadly little in the latter.

[you_with_the_face]

Originally Posted by LinusK View Post
I don’t have a lot to say about this, but you wrote a lot, and you wrote honestly, so I feel like I should. You’re not a loser for wanting to love somebody who loves you back. It’s unfortunately one of the double-standards of our time that if a woman says she can’t find a man, it’s because “There’s no good men out there.” If a man does the same thing, he’s labeled a “loser.”

Can I give you some advice? Stop conjuring up the existence of double standards to justify your beliefs. Seriously. I can assure you, as a woman has been single for most of her life, there is no shortage of judgments directed towards women who can’t find partners. At best, a single woman is assumed to be too picky. At worst, she’s assumed to be a frigid, batshit crazy bitch. There are a ton of op-eds out there which cast blame, shame, and fear on single women. Perhaps you’re unaware of this because you have no reason to pay attention to it, but it’s out there.

If I can offer some MGTOW advice: women date up. They’re looking for a man with higher status than their own (whether that’s money, degrees, or whatever). If you’re looking for a woman to date, and to have a positive experience with, date “down”. Look for women who have less status, money, education, or whatever. The fact that a woman, for whatever reason, has had fewer advantages in life is no reason to reject her. It’s worth a shot. If it doesn’t work, you’re no worse off than you were before. But whatever you do, don’t date a woman who self-identifies as a feminist.

And this is crappy advice, too. It’s outdated by about 60 years.

A single guy should be expanding his options, not closing them. Which means he should be open to dating up, down, and sideways. Woman are increasingly pairing up with guys who earn less money than them. I make almost twice as much as my fiancé, and believe it or not, we’re both perfectly fine with this. He’s such a great* person*, who has much more going for him than just his checkbook, so I don’t think of myself as “dating down” at all. I think it’s really sad when men perpetrate this “dating up/down” thing.

I identify as a feminist, by the way. So by excluding women like me, you will miss out on someone who doesn’t define men by how much money they make. Which makes zero sense.

[wonky]

@you_with_the_face

Can I give you some advice? Stop conjuring up the existence of double standards to justify your beliefs. Seriously. I can assure you, as a woman has been single for most of her life, there is no shortage of judgments directed towards women who can’t find partners. At best, a single woman is assumed to be too picky. At worst, she’s assumed to be a frigid, batshit crazy bitch. There are a ton of op-eds out there which cast blame, shame, and fear on single women. Perhaps you’re unaware of this because you have no reason to pay attention to it, but it’s out there.

Yes, it’s definitely out there. I’ve been married most of my adult life, but I’ve definitely seen the attacks on single women as losers, bitches, ugly lesbians, obsessed with their pets, man-hungry, etc. They are often portrayed as pathetic and desperate and dangerous for their unstable ways. People make a point of talking about how unlikely women are to find husbands after a certain age, and how they are being manipulated by popular culture into thinking they are princesses, etc.

[Dr.Strangelove]

@jsgoddess

But if it’s more “I had a role that I understood and now I feel confused in these tumultuous times,” well, that’s a much different proposition, and I’m quite sympathetic to it.

I don’t think that’s it. Remember, these particular guys are not the same guys that benefited from sexism in the past. They never had a role to understand. It was their parents that had that role and they never stopped playing it.

It’s more like they were told when they were young: “Sorry that you’re bored to shit during school, but it doesn’t matter. You don’t need it because you’re a MAN, baby. You’ve got it MADE. It doesn’t matter if the girl goes to college because they’ll pick you no matter what. Also, we’ve got a shitload of manufacturing jobs and they don’t give a fuck if you’re dumb as dirt.”

So the boys say that sounds pretty good, and they won’t worry that the girls seem to be pulling ahead. Then they grow up and find it was all false; they needed that education after all because a big portion of the male privilege went away and the manufacturing jobs disappeared.

They’re confused and maybe they lash out at feminists, because it seems like they ruined things for them. But really it was the people that raised them as if those benefits would last forever.

[wonky]

@Dr.Strangelove

It’s more like they were told when they were young: “Sorry that you’re bored to shit during school, but it doesn’t matter. You don’t need it because you’re a MAN, baby. You’ve got it MADE. It doesn’t matter if the girl goes to college because they’ll pick you no matter what. Also, we’ve got a shitload of manufacturing jobs and they don’t give a fuck if you’re dumb as dirt.”

So the boys say that sounds pretty good, and they won’t worry that the girls seem to be pulling ahead. Then they grow up and find it was all false; they needed that education after all because a big portion of the male privilege went away and the manufacturing jobs disappeared.

They’re confused and maybe they lash out at feminists, because it seems like they ruined things for them. But really it was the people that raised them as if those benefits would last forever.

For me, what you wrote and what I wrote are very similar. It’s about someone feeling like they understood what their role was and what they would be doing and later find that they were misled (or misled themselves).

[LinusK]

@Shagnasty

I am surprised you had either no or very few male teachers growing up. I had plenty even in rural Louisiana in the 1980’s. There were few in elementary school but there were plenty from 7th grade and beyond (maybe a small minority but not all that drastic). The sports coaches had to teach classes as well so that they justify their true passion but most of them were reasonably good at it and actually tried. We had a few commuting male teachers that didn’t make it in the larger school districts in the nearest city that made the long drive down every morning car-pool style. There was a reason they couldn’t get a job closer to home. They knew their subject but they were complete wieners that had no idea how to control a classroom so their classes were just a mutual exercise in semi-controlled chaos punctuated randomly by complete chaos as the winds shifted.

I never wished for more male teachers even though I respected some of the good ones we had. The black female teachers were my favorites overall. They knew their shit and they could dominate a classroom like no others and make it funny at the same time. Our school district was roughly 50-50 black and white and the black female teachers were the only ones willing to come down hard on everyone equally. You did not screw up in their class because they always had complete control and everybody knew it.

Yeah, all of the teachers at the elementary school I went to were women. Of course some of the teachers in High School were men. I remember a Physics teacher I liked, for example.

At the time, I didn’t think anything about it. I was a kid. Things were what they were.

I’m just thinking that boys, in general, would benefit from having men as teachers in elementary school. Particularly boys who don’t have any other role models - boys without dads for example.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@you_with_the_face

And this is crappy advice, too. It’s outdated by about 60 years.

In my opinion, expecting women to be preoccupied with finding men who’re financially stable is indeed decades out of date (or higher status or whatever **LinusK **wants to call it). I’m 31 now and every woman I dated before getting married had a professional career and expected to support herself every bit as much as I do and any men I know.

There’s always going to be desperately poor people who can’t help finding financial security or status somewhat appealing, but it’s a pretty pathetic dating strategy.

[LinusK]

@Dr.Strangelove

Read my posts again–that’s exactly what I’ve done.

To the extent that I’ve defended anyone, it’s “basement dwelling losers without a girlfriend”, not MGTOW members specifically. There are lots of basement dwelling losers around and not all of them are misogynists. It bugs me somewhat when people dismiss opinions on that basis alone. Yes, MGTOW members are assholes. But they grew out of a larger group of losers, and those losers have some legitimate complaints.

I think it’s sad to dismiss people as “basement dwelling losers.” It’s also dismaying and informative that when I post text from non-basement dwelling losers, from the site, it’s ignored. But when someone simply states they’re hateful misogynists, it’s accepted unquestionably. To me, it’s a simple case of people seeing what they want to see, and disregarding the rest.

But people come to every issue with their own set of preconceptions and long-held ideologies. Often it’s easier to label people, and sweep them under the rug, than reexamine your own cherished beliefs.

[wonky]

@LinusK

But whatever you do, don’t date a woman who self-identifies as a feminist.

@LinusK

But people come to every issue with their own set of preconceptions and long-held ideologies. Often it’s easier to label people, and sweep them under the rug, than reexamine your own cherished beliefs.

Ain’t that the truth.

[Miller]

@LinusK

I think it’s sad to dismiss people as “basement dwelling losers.” It’s also dismaying and informative that when I post text from non-basement dwelling losers, from the site, it’s ignored. But when someone simply states they’re hateful misogynists, it’s accepted unquestionably. To me, it’s a simple case of people seeing what they want to see, and disregarding the rest.

But people come to every issue with their own set of preconceptions and long-held ideologies. Often it’s easier to label people, and sweep them under the rug, than reexamine your own cherished beliefs.

Speaking of only seeing what you want to see, I think it’s interesting how readily you’re willing to throw feminism, as a whole, under the bus because of the statements of a few people on the fringes of that enormous movement, while at the same time, you’re also willing to sift through mountains and mountains of explicitly misogynistic crap on an MRA site in order to find one nugget that could maybe, if you squint right, be a reasonable argument, and then defend the group as a whole on the basis of that one post.

[BlackKnight]

@you with the face

I do think sexism is damaging to men, but not in the ways that MRA types seem to focus on. For instance, rarely do I hear men criticize how often the media portrays males as violent, emotionally unavailable, and unable to maintain healthy relationships with others.

I’ve seen this discussed many times on various Internet sites over the years, including (but not limited to) MRA-friendly ones. It’s actually a rather popular topic. I’m surprised to hear you haven’t encountered it being discussed.

[Robot_Arm]

@you_with_the_face

Women have been complaining about their depictions in the media for years. And there has been some progress due to these complaints. Men should also take a critical look at how they are depicted. The pressure to be at the top of the heap largely comes from how we define masculinity in a patriarchical society. Make patriarchy the thing that needs to be challenged–not women–and then perhaps there will be less angst.

@BlackKnight

I’ve seen this discussed many times on various Internet sites over the years, including (but not limited to) MRA-friendly ones. It’s actually a rather popular topic. I’m surprised to hear you haven’t encountered it being discussed.

I don’t know that I’d call it a popular topic. I’ve seen it mentioned around here, and I’ve even brought it up myself, but it never seemed to get much traction.

[Slithy_Tove]

LinusK doesn’t seem like a bad guy and I’m not going to pile on for his dating advice (and giving unsolicited advice is as hard-wired into men as shit-testing is into women :)). And since we’re into the subcategory of dating vis a vis MGTOW:

There are creeps who think buying dinner entitles them to sex. MGTOW isn’t for them. Their aggression and resentment won’t bring them contentment ever, but it will occasionally get their dicks wet. And that their stupid yardstick of success.

There are monsters who think buying dinner enables them to rape. MGTOW isn’t even on their radar. They don’t “go their own way,” they go where women can be preyed upon (until, as soon as possible, a women will shoot them).

But there are many, many more guys who buy dinner and then basically sit there alone while women talk on their cell phones all night with their girlfriends, or text the arrangements with their FWB for after they ditch this sucker. That’s who MGTOW is for.

(And BTW, those are the women who say “I don’t need feminism. I’m young, smart and hot and can get what I want for myself!”)

You are right: MGTOW is for guys who can’t get laid. Decent guys for whom “hump 'em and dump 'em” isn’t the coin of the realm, but who aren’t seen as steady boyfriend material in a world where men still have to apply and women still get to veto. MGTOW explains how the the only realistically better alternative to involuntary celibacy is voluntary celibacy, at least for the time being. Like they tell guys in prison, don’t just serve time. Make time serve you. For the younger guys with higher sex drives, it’s ok to use porn. If women have the right to play their options without being slut-shamed, then guys do without being smut-shamed. And correct me if I’m wrong, but progressive feminists, at least the ones with sons, are pretty cool with male masturbation.

However, MGTOW isn’t a unified field theory for all life. I’m too old for much of what it offers. Quintin Crisp, as a gay rights pioneer was out of its demographic, and he had that quote about how, if you ever hope to be happy, you have to be willing to fully offer your heart with no expectation of anything in return. Very un-MGTOW and too beautiful to be denied.

Martin Luther King Jr, un-MGTOW swimming in pussy, and even more courageous than Quintin Crisp, had the quote “Evil cannot be forced out. It must be crowded out.” Evil can take different forms: the abuse you refuse to accept from others, as well as the resentment you refuse to nurse yourself.

[DigitalC]

@Slithy_Tove

(And BTW, those are the women who say “I don’t need feminism. I’m young, smart and hot and can get what I want for myself!”)

And this is the problem. If there was nothing wrong with those guys they would find someone, because half the world is made up of girls who want relationships as bad (or more) than guys do. What they really want and feel entitled to is one of them hot young ones and completely dismiss the kind of girl who would be interested in them. Every woman wants an attractive millionaire musician, every man wants a victoria secret angel, 99.999999999% of us know we won’t get one and move on.