I certainly agree, but you can see some people in this very thread (not you) doing the same in return.
We’ve got a group of marginalized people that are angry at that fact. They don’t like that others say they aren’t marginalized because they happen to be male and mostly white. But the fact is that they aren’t sharing in the benefits that other white males are getting.
Their anger is to a large extent misdirected, but at least their solution to the problem doesn’t involve violence or other nastiness.
I think it’s reasonable to ask if society can accommodate these people instead of just labeling them as losers.
I admit that I haven’t read much of their material, but so far I haven’t seen any of that. There’s been a huge focus on giving girls equal access to education, and it’s been a massive success. But it’s exposed some problems with the way that boys are educated, and it might be wise to divert some resources in that direction.
It’s not zero-sum, but just the same resources are limited, and it’s probably good to put more emphasis on the group that’s farthest behind.
Sure. But one also shouldn’t ignore a group just because their shrillest people act that way. Just like we shouldn’t condemn feminism just because of a few unpleasant outliers. All this men’s rights stuff is pretty nascent and as such there’s a lot of bullshit mixed in, but it’s unfair to ignore the legitimate points on that basis.
I thought your answer was interesting, you are a male looking for the same qualities in your mate that other males typically look for. Those are not the the qualities that females are typically attracted to even though they do value them.
The marginalized group mentioned by the OP is just a small fragment of society responding to the same phenomenon that many other men are also responding to but in different ways. Married men make up a large percentage of this group.
Hey, hey, hey!!! MGTOW are not “motherfuckers”!!! :mad:
'Cause mothers are (by definition) gurls, and MGTOW are certainly not going to risk getting cooties fooling around with any of those.
Are they really the group farthest behind? It seems like they’re complaining because they don’t make quite as much money as some men and they aren’t dating super hot women. Maybe a little perspective is in order?
I’m a middle-aged single white man. And I’m a sociable guy always looking for new people to hang out with. So I was considering putting in an application to join.
But then I looked over the website and realized I would never be able to whine enough to fit in.
A start would be to avoid some of the nasty comments that have appeared in this thread, which would be wholly inappropriate when applied to any other group.
Of course we can divvy up society in any number of different ways. Sex is one important axis that we divide on, and on this axis men are now behind women in educational outcomes.
Again, that form of argument would be inappropriate when applied to any other group. We don’t tell feminists to suck it up because at least they aren’t in Saudi Arabia.
It may be that their grievances are totally illegitimate, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. If certain trends continue, men are in for a few bad decades.
These same trends aren’t limited to America. The same kind of pattern is promoting demographic collapse in Japan (“herbivores”) and terrorism in the Middle East. It’s probably worth paying attention to and looking at causes.
I don’t know anything about these guys beyond what I’ve read in this thread, but it sounds like they’ve dismissed themselves as basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends.
If they’re choosing to remove themselves from mainstream society then I think mainstream society will manage to carry on somehow.
The Cathie strip dealt with it. Mr Pinckney, the boss, comes back from a drum-circle retreat:
Mr P: It really put me in touch with myself, and helped me to realise how oppressed men are nowadays. For instance, I was never allowed to have a Bar Mitzvah!
Cathie: Mr Pinckney, you’re Presbyterian!
Mr P: Oh right. Well, that’s one I can cross off the list.
Sure. They’re pretty unpleasant. But I also have no idea if they’re representative. And I oppose dismissing any viewpoint just because the most vocal ones are sociopathic.
Also, even for the worst of them, this is just the end product of a long process. We don’t look at the crime rate, and say that we shouldn’t do anything, because after all, they’re criminals and deserve what they got. Well, maybe they do deserve it, but at the same time we look at the reasons why someone might turn into a criminal and see if we can ameliorate them somehow.
The same phenomena driving groups like MGTow is also behind the high crime rate in minorities, high divorce rates in the middle class, expanding drug abuse problems. It has been glaring at us for decades yet seems to be ignored. More men are having a hard time fulfilling what they perceive as a male roll. Nothing to laugh at. Things can start to breakdown when basic human instincts are somehow short circuited.
I think it’s more than appropriate to level criticism at a group that’s vile and hateful. There’s something deeply wrong with these guys if that’s how they really think.
But overall as a group men are still doing pretty damned well. And no, I wouldn’t tell anyone to suck it up because it could be worse, if they have a genuine complaint. If you’re a woman complaining that hot, rich guys won’t go for you…yeah, the Saudi Arabia comment might work. Sitting around making hateful comments about women and then wondering why you’re single–yeah, I think “suck it up” is essentially the only way to respond to that.
What is legitimate about their grievances? Beautiful women not wanting to go out with them doesn’t equal oppression.
Nonsense. I’m happy talking smack about:
-Whiny misogynists
-Klan members
-Gossipy backstabbers
-People who put spycams in bathrooms
-People who talk in the theater
In other words, people who do or say shitty things. Analogizing between people who do shitty things and people who have the wrong skin tone or religion or sex or sexual preference or whatever your insinuation is, is ridiculous.
We can either dismiss complaints as the product of a mental defect, or we can ask how things got that way. I know which one of these approaches leads to better outcomes.
Yeah–“as a group”. Success is not equally distributed. And it’s seemingly less well distributed as time goes on.
Browsing around wikis and other stuff, I can pick out a fair number of reasonable complaints:
Educational practices that lead to worse outcomes for men
Overblown claims of income disparity that don’t account for job differences
Traditional marriage is a greater cost for men than women
Bias in custody proceedings
Bias in the way rape is handled, from false accusations to underreporting
Now, mixed in with this is a lot of bile and hatred, and indeed some element of “I deserve a beautiful girlfriend”. It’s hard to separate the two and easy to dismiss it all based on that.
Unreasonable expectations from the media and the rest of society cause all kinds of problems. Depictions of photoshopped skinny girls creates anorexics. It might be that the constant portrayal of the dude-who-can’t-get-a-girlfriend as an angry loser might be creating angry losers.
I agree. I’m a survivor of public school, myself. I had two friends, and we never played “kill the faggot” or whatever game the boys were playing. School is for the benefit of the teachers, not the students. After elementary school, things got way worse. The difference now is recess is all but gone, and they’re pathologizing the boys. My friend (different friend) has two boys, and they’re refusing the Ritalin. A good decision, IMO. They’re just boys, not mentally ill.
On the OT: Are you a lesbian?
If so, congratulations.
Oh, to be 25 years younger, and gay.
If you’re limiting your comments to just the people that uploaded those stupid, hateful posters–then sure. Rail away. But I see this as a more general trend, and one that could be very damaging in the long run.