My mathematical WAG would be approximately 50 percent.
I love this baloney arguement. Its the man’s fault the woman got pregnant. Unless she was just laying on her backing thinking of England and hoping the dude pays her light bill, she was there enjoying getting laid too.
Didn’t David Lee Roth try to do that back in the early days of Van Halen?
Your assessment is correct.
50% is a lot higher than 0%, wouldn’t you agree? Perhaps friend Molesworth 2 needs to get a clue.
For those men whining they should be able to insist on abortion, yes. Absolutely.
You have 100% control over your life and your body.
So you do admit to having control over your own reproductive rights?
If you want a 100% foolproof guarantee that you can enjoy sex with no risk of pregnancy, yes, you should; just as women should. If you want a guarantee that you will not be in any way responsible for caring for an unwanted child, yes, you should, just as women should. Women choose sterilization all the time. So do men, and you are welcome to do a search for vasectomy related threads. Men do it all the time with terrific results.
Whining for the right to baby-free vagina. Ridiculous.
Yep, she’s responsible, too. So… what’s your point?
I just don’t get this.
When my partner and I started to get serious, all those years ago, we sat down and talked about pregnancy and kids, and all that stuff. We both agreed we did not want to be parents, and that, if I should get pregnant, I would have an abortion. Every so often we would touch base again, and confirm that, yes, nothing had changed and neither of us wanted to be a parent (again). We even set aside a sum of money to be used for an abortion, should one be needed.
Then, one day when I was late, and then discovered I was a couple weeks pregnant, there was no fear and little hassle. One last time we discussed it, now that the possibility had become reality, but it was more a formality than anything. The total amount of time that passed between my discovering I was pregnant and then terminating was less than a week. It wasn’t hard, because it was something we had talked about and decided long ago.
My SO has regular sex with no fear of paying child support, because he chooses his partners carefully, doubles up on protection (pill and condom), and communicates his feelings beforehand. It’s worked for him and millions of other men. It’s not much of a hardship at all. Now, it isn’t 100% foolproof, but it’s damn close. If you aren’t doing at least that much to ensure there’s no pregnancy, as far as I’m concerned, you;re playing with fire. And you get little sympathy from me when you get burned.
I’m not saying “keep it in your pants”. I’m saying, act like an adult before you engage in adult activities, and you’ll almost certainly be fine. Use discretion. Don’t let lust excuse carelessness. Take responsibility for your reproductive acts. Women do it already; it’s time for (some) men to step up their game.
As does my conscientious ex, who had a vasectomy at age 33 after we had a pregnancy scare and I terminated an unwanted pregnancy. Even though the pregnancy was likely caused by my experiencing a stomach virus while taking oral contraceptives, he was aware that he contributed 50% of the DNA that led to the unintended pregnancy. He didn’t complain or blame me for the error, but he did ensure the mistake wouldn’t happen again. Somewhere out there a lucky woman will stumble across that man who won’t roll the dice on her dime.
I don’t get this either. From this thread, it certainly seems that some men want the ability to have sex and not worry about consequences.
Biology isn’t fair and both men and women can deceive each other. Also both parties can change their mind when the theoretical becomes a reality; some women decide they really do want to keep a pregnancy, some men decide to walk away despite saying that they’re anti-abortion.
Pre-conception. Men and women are on equal footing. Both parties should be responsible for contraception and understanding the impact if it fails. Some people would have no trouble with an abortion; others will. A man who expects that an accidental pregnancy would be aborted with a woman who thinks she should give birth is just as unmatched as a man who wants the pregnancy to progress and a woman who thinks it should be aborted. There are people of both genders on both sides.
Post-conception and pre-delivery. This is the only time where women have a choice that men don’t have. However each choice has consequences and ramifications - abortion and pregnancy. This is also the only time where women have risks that men don’t bear. Both pregnancy and abortion have risks to a woman’s health (short-term and long-term) and life. There is also an economic impact that men, to my knowledge, aren’t required to share.
Post-delivery. Men and women are on equal footing. Both parties are responsible for paying for upkeep of their child.
How bout this.
We decide to do the nasty. We both sign a legal document from Legalzoom.com beforehand.
It has three options.
Lady gets pregnant. Guy doesn’t want a kid. Have fun lady. Guy goes and buys a bass boat instead but gets no custody. And he can’t force you to have an abortion but he can’t get the kid either.
Lady gets pregnant and guy agrees to pay for rug rat. He ALSO gets some serious time with the kid if he wants too. And a fair legal shake at actually keeping the kid himself if mommy ain’t that great a mommy (or he’s just better at it for that matter).
Lady gets pregnant and can opt for an abortion and the guy isn’t allowed to bitch about it. Maybe he has to pay 50 percent for the procedure or something.
A mother shouldn’t use the courts if the father of her child turns out to be a deadbeat, she should have acted like an adult and made better choices or gotten an abortion.
I guess she should have chosen better for the father of her child, and any further complaining about it is just her whining for the right to a full wallet.
See how ridiculous that sounds?
Sure, if you choose to forgo responsibility for birth control, you are free to hash out any agreement with your partner that you feel will protect your interests. Bear in mind that courts are likely to err in favor of the* child’s *best interests over you or mom’s selfish wants and needs.
No, both should have acted like an adults and taken measures to prevent a pregnancy pre-conception.
He should have chosen a sterile partner, used birth control, or taken other measures to avoid pregnancy, including but not limited to abstaining.
Some of you men have seem to have forgotten what sex is* for*, if you ever knew in the first place. Sex isn’t analogous to smoking, drinking, or enjoying a good nap or a game of badminton; it feels good because it promotes and facilitates the propagation of a species. How in the hell can any adult with an elementary school education let the blatant purpose of sex escape you?
For God’s sake, viruses have more innate knowledge of the desire and drive to have intercourse; it is an ideal vector because living creatures can’t resist the urge to mix it up. We are damn lucky each time we have a mutually satisfying experience that does not result in an unwanted pregnancy, and with the exception of rape, each person in a physical relationship is responsible for avoiding pregnancy.
And good grief you guys keep whining about an expense. It’s a *human being *you helped create, not a debt. It’s a person who didn’t ask you to put your dick anywhere, who didn’t ask to be born of an irresponsible act, an unwilling father, an impoverished and resentful man. Yes, every single person who takes part in the willing creation of a human being shares responsibility for that person for the rest of his or her adult life. I’m completely ashamed of any adult who fails to acknowledge that babies are a risk and side effect of sex, and even more ashamed of any adult who refers to an unplanned person as a “debt”.
It really does sound ridiculous, but not for the reason you think (or intended).
Child support is for the child. She isn’t “whining for a full wallet”; the kid needs basic support to survive. It’s a child, an innocent who didn’t ask to be born. Society (rightly) puts the kid’s needs above those of the adults who made the decisions that resulted in the birth. The system is fucked up. It should be fixed. But men do not have a right to responsibility-free, consequence-free sex, and as long as that is the way this subject is framed, people will dismiss men’s* complaints as whole, fairly or unfairly.
*true, women also pay support. But the clamoring for a change to the way custody and support is done comes mostly from men
I love how the idea presented is that women are living the high life off of child support payments from stolen semen. Googling around brings up various census numbers, but it looks like the average child support payment is $380 a month in the US— $125 if the guy is below the poverty line.
Oh man, I’m going to go steal some sperm so I can live the high life off of that extra $400 a month. Forget that I actually have to feed this awful thing I created, but you can do that for a lot less than $400 a month, right?
Step 1: Collect Sperm
Step 2: ???
Step 3: PROFITS!!!
Personally, I feel that we do too many things “for the children” and that sometimes, shit happens and children will and should suffer. Parents should be able to sign away their parental rights. Without parental rights, even if the child has nowhere to go, the parent should be able to live and not pay a dime.
Unfortunately, the policy in much of the US is that no matter what, if the child has needs that aren’t being met, they have to be extracted from the parents, either biological or not. I’ve heard, and this is on the old Tom Leykis show (and he hates women so I dunno how credible this is) that in California, a man simply dating a single-mom can be forced to pay child support even after they break up after a certain period of time or if they lived together.
Don’t be ridiculous. Someone has to pay to support and raise children to adulthood; we aren’t going to exterminate unwanted children or leave them in the street to die like stray dogs. If not the two persons who created or adopted the child, then who?
But I really want to have totally consequence free sex.
Because it is unfortunate that even for a very responsible person, who knows 100% that they never want kids, having sex requires playing Russian roulette.
If we can make an unfortunate situation better, with minimal cost, then why not do it?
Note that I don’t consider abortion to be a perfect fix, as women may have moral opposition to it, or there may be medical complications.
That is why I think it could be a good idea for both women and men to be allowed to get sterilized and receive documentation making them immune from child support. We could add other requirements as well, but it would have to be things that could be easily proven (condom use, for example, could not be proved after the fact). This idea would create a situation where responsible people can have sex without risking their livelihood, and because the failure rate is so low it wouldn’t cost that much.
Oh, they’re just children, who cares?
There’s no sense in arguing with someone who would make this argument, you know? I mean, seriously, this thread demonstrates that there are some people who have no respect for women at all and only care about themselves and their own comfort. The best thing for womankind is for all of us to avoid guys like this completely…I’m sure they can figure out another way to satisfy their base urges.
There’s a lot of women in this thread who seem to think “he’s unemployed” is a good reason to make sure he never sees his kid. I wonder how many of them think stay-at-home mothers ought to be stripped of their children, the lazy cows? Some man-haters just see men as a way to fund their own decisions, and failing that as a piggy bank for whatever else they like.
Well, there’s the morning after pill. And abortion. And adoption, as pointed out upthread. If a man accidentally gets a woman pregnant, she can become a parent or not, his fate is in her hands. Or if he doesn’t, but he was married to her at the time and is in a Presumption of Paternity jurisdiction, or if he offers to pay for an abortion and that’s taken as a confession of fatherhood, or even if she rapes him or steals his sperm form the waste basket, as courts have consistently decided that rape victims are still liable, and that theft of sperm isn’t a crime.
If a woman wants to be a parent she should pay for her own decision, as it is her decision.
Then let those women who get themselves pregnant do so.
I’ve got great news. Post menopause you can! Oops, let the cat out of the bag. Wait till they start fretting about how unfair menopause is, and what a cosmic travesty it is that men continue to be fertile and liable well beyond their 40s while women can get poked with wild abandon. Menopause, like pregnancy and abortions are just another right denied to men. Truly we hold all the power though only half the gametes.