Mental disorders aren't necessarily valid

DSeid:

Yes, I understood that, sort of. But I was trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to outline clear problems in the family situation that might not be so easy to dig up in course of a couple of clinical interviews. Do you often ask parents about their private family history, and the state of their current relationship, when assessing a child? Parents will be naturally a bit defensive about their child-rearing practices, and also tend to disavow or downplay anything about their history which might make them seem unusual, or potentially unsuitable, as parents. So there exists a good chance, I submit, that a cursory examination wouldn’t unearth a lot of these factors, with the possible exception of the problem concerning the lack of parental consistency in discipline. They are the sorts of problems that would perhaps require a few sessions of family therapy before surfacing.

And on what basis do you diagnose the parents, and determine that their symptoms are also genetic, rather than the result of ego defenses against painful childhood experiences?

Precisely. But my example relies on my assertion that the sorts of problems I’ve outlined above are rendered “invisible,” in standard clinical practice, by the DSM’s focus on a descriptive report of a hypothetical “disorder.” When you meet Joey’s parents, you meet two people who, for all the world, appear quite normal. You may notice that Joey’s father seems a bit intense, but he certainly doesn’t suffer from ADD in any classical sense. Joey’s mother will not want to discuss her alcoholic father with you, nor does she perceive a connection between Joey’s condition and her aversion to peas.

In other words, I’m not convinced that Joey is “disordered” in the sense one might generally conceive of the term. Rather, he’s simply reacting to a dysfunctional situation that, if we apply DSM criteria for diagnosis, would not be noticed. This is the weakness of the DSM that I hoped my example would illustrate – but yeesh are you guys a tough audience!

:slight_smile:

To try to put it another way: one child, suffering from “real,” genetically determined ADHD, comes from a family that displays none of the dysfunctional dynamics I outlined above. Another, who would otherwise develop quite “normally,” suffers from symptoms much like ADHD because of family problems. But both display behavior that is consistent with the DSM criteria for the disorder, and I suspect that both will receive the same treatment. In the best case scenario, that treatment would begin with therapeutic interventions; in Joey’s case, those interventions would bear fruit, but in the case of the second child, suffering from a biological problem, they would not. (Even that is an oversimplification, because therapy can help children who suffer from the biological disorder as well.) But in the worse case scenario, Joey’s physician gives the family a little advice, puts Joey on medication, and either way, there appears to be a marked improvement.
Hentor:

I didn’t realize I was being so “non-committal,” but anyway the example is hypothetical. I would be very interested to read your review, if you care to post the specifics (or you can send them to me by email).

Yes, that sounds like a very good approach. But I must confess that in my professional experience, I’ve never seen it.

I have only anecdotal evidence from my practice (and in my circle of friends), where similar cases are occasionally discussed. In those cases, almost exclusively, prescriptions of medication are virtually invariably the first line of response. After all, therapy is demanding, time-consuming, expensive, and cannot guarantee significant improvement. In addition, it may result in the revelation of “uncomfortable truths” that the entire family system is basically designed to keep hidden. By contrast, medicine is cheap, usually effective, promises quick results, and doesn’t “rock the boat,” if you get what I mean.

Yes, it’s my contention that Joey’s situation would “mimic” ADHD, without necessarily requiring a biological component. As far as I’m aware, however, that doesn’t contradict the DSM-IV, which specifically seeks to avoid causal explanations and holds itself to a strictly descriptive delineation of mental disorders. In other words, as far as I know, the DSM-IV does not rule out the possibility that symptoms of ADHD could in some cases be the result of environmental factors exclusively. Is that incorrect?

As I stated, Joey’s mother gave him a 5, his father a 6, and his teacher a 9 on the Connor’s scale. Just to keep my scenario consistent, let’s say he falls into the “hyperactive-impulsive” subtype. I’m not sure what you mean by “adequate historical review,” since the diagnosis (as explicated in the DSM-IV) doesn’t stipulate anything about the sufferer’s history other than the fact that his symptoms should not be explicable as a “culturally sanctioned” response to emotional trauma or something along those lines. No one close to Joey has died. He meets the criteria of the disorder, and the DSM makes no mention of considering the state of his family relations.

That’s a very good question.

But let’s ask it this way: let’s say that Joey’s family goes into therapy, and they respond positively. As a result, Joey’s symptoms gradually disappear. Would that mean that he did not have ADHD?

It’s my contention that the symptoms of ADHD may in some case be the result of a biological disorder, in some cases a result of environmental problems, and in some cases a result of both working together. I also think that:

  1. It’s inappropriate to address Joey’s family problems by medicating Joey;

  2. It’s inappropriate to address the problems of a child with a “biological” ADHD disorder with family therapy.

So, ideally, the diagnosis should be able to differentiate between the two.

It has been my experience (and the experience of many people whose reports I’ve read) that the prescription of medication is almost always the first solution general practitioners (and increasingly even psychiatric professionals) try. Psychological therapies are suggested or urged, but they’re seen very much as second-line treatments.

You can even see this in psychiatric textbooks and dictionaries: pharmaceutical therapies are often listed first, then the more extreme biological therapies, and psychological therapies last. It isn’t always the case, but the tendency is quite obvious.

I’m going to respond as time allows.

Parents defensive about their child rearing? Nah. usually self balming (or spouse blaming) and needing reassurance that they are actually not so far off from everyone else. No, I don’t get too deep. I rely on my two flags-

Mismatch between home and school ratings or between parent ratings.

Lack of response to intwervention. Stimulants are not enough to offset a reaction to a truly dysfunctional situation.

The parents I don’t diagnose but I suspect and the parents usually self-identify after seeing positive effect on the kids and often go into their own docs to be diagnosed later.

That ADHD has a strong, very strong, genetic component is well established. Do I really need to go and dredge up the articles?

I am less convinced that the family dynamics you describe would cause Joey’s behavior.

ADHD is a description not a statement as to cause. This kid has ADHD even if the behavior was reactive (which I posit is unlikely in the scenerio described.) You take the correlation that this child is from a dysfunctional family and presume that it causes the behavior. But you do not know that and I would doubt it. And yes, it is still ADHD if therapy alone works.

All we know for sure is that this is his behavior and that this is what worked for him. Attribution to cause is speculation in an idividual case.

I missed alot of the Joey conversation. Did anyone interview the teacher? To ask her and the parents/teacher what works with him? Observe him in the classroom? I’ll read back, don’t bother to answer those questions if you did.

Re: the quote above, I’ll take a crack at it as a clinician.

No, it doesn’t mean he didn’t have ADD. It means that whatever the problem was, it was treatable by family therapy. Maybe he did/does have ADD, and maybe all it took was a shift in parenting to help him manage it.

TVAA- I appreciate the fact that you qualified that last bit of misinformation with “it’s been my experience”
thank you, at least we don’t think you’re trying to pass it off as fact.

Know what? I need to amend my answer to “would that mean that he did not have ADHD?”

my real answer is “who cares?”

problem solved, the diagnosis is no longer useful or relevant.

Just taking time to quickly duck in and read up on the latest exchanges in this thread - and I wanted to thank Hentor, geck, Dseid and Mr S for their interesting and often valuable (to me, as a post grad psych student) contributions.

Mr S. elevated the conversation some I think, auliya.

Mr. S.,

Let me play the scenerio back at you.

The meds worked. It was a quick and fairly cost effective intervention. Odds are that Joey is now testing the family dynamics much less (remember, he was an even bigger trial to teacher and peers, this wasn’t all their faulty expectations) and maybe with less to have conflicts over the parents are less stressed. Maybe they enjoy him more. Given that he doesn’t act as impulsively and doesn’t touch absolutely everything anymore maybe Mom is a little less overwhelmed being out on Dad’s family activities, and Dad is a little less overwhelmed at being stuck in the house. Says “No” a little less often and has learned, even from my brief intervention, that some things aren’t worth having the battle over. Mom still hates peas, loud noises, and hugs. (She probably has a fairly narrow range of interests and makes poor eye contact too.) Dad still works long hours, travels lots, and tries to dominate the show when he’s around. He probably still has to have exactly two teaspoons of sugar in his coffee and the milk, not cream, added after not before.

Compare this to the results of a year of weekly family therapy. Would you have made as much progress in Joey’s behavior? Is he learning more in school? Disrupting other kids and the teacher as much less? Would you have corrected the family dynamics by then? Would you be able to change these parents’ temperments? You would have spent more time (both yours and theirs) and likely lots more money, would the family be substantially better off?*

Remember, the prize my eye is on is what helps my patient more with less risk/cost. If meds did it with little side effects then I call it a success. Cheap, reasonably effective, and quick, I think you called it. Sounds good to me. I’ll need to be convinced that rocking the boat is going to accomplish enough to make it worth the time and tsuris.

To rephrase: The kid has ADHD. In this case with identifiably bad family dynamics. What is most likely to work best and with the least risk/cost? And how do you know?

*And BTW do you have good evidence that psychotherapy works better than placebo?

The truth found at this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218026&perpage=50&pagenumber=2

(See your not-so-vague admission to Coldfire above.)

You’ve also claimed that you are trained as a cognitive psychologist* – which implies continuing professional development.

And “technically,” you are misrepresenting yourself. Take note of this response to your wording:

Note what Shoshana says in response to your claim:

Also, in this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212863&perpage=50&pagenumber=2

Zenster said this:

Since you have claimed to be so ethical, did you correct his mistake? Not at all! You encouraged it! The next words you posted were these:

That certainly sounds to me like you were trying to pass yourself off as not only a professional, but a licensed physician.

As has been explained to you before, credentials for psychologists are an exception because of its close association with medical fields. And of course they often overlap. That’s why it is so important not to mislead people into thinking that you have had a level of training that you haven’t. And that’s why it is important not to use the editorial we when refering to professionals when you are not one. (See #6) No one would have to explain any of this to even a well-read amateur.

  1. False. Psychiatry and clinical psychology are not sciences. Cognitive psychology is a science. Unfortunately, the two distinct disciplines are shoehorned into one category, and there are more clinical than cognitive psychologists. This is why psychology as a whole is considered a liberal art, not a science.

The truth from this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218026&perpage=50&pagenumber=3

Also,

(Notice that there is no qualifier before the world psychology. Didn’t you just refer to that as “shoehorning”?)

And from this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212863&perpage=50&pagenumber=3

Do you realize what an absurd idea that is – especially for someone who claims to have a scientific mind? You can’t possibly have measured your knowledge of “the history and theoretical support for psychiatric treatment methods and the professional debates about them” against the the majority of clinicians. You would have looked less foolish just to have admitted that you claimed you knew more than most pros.

I also found it interesting that you consider that you might be an expert in past theoretical errors in medicine.

(Oh the irony!)

I know, I know. If we will just go reread your posts, we will understand…

The truth:
Previous exchange between TVAA and myself from this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218026&pagenumber=1

[quote]
TVAA: I most certainly do deny that. The question involved what I knew about the dynamics of psychotherapy – and at least in theory, therapists aren’t supposed to harm people while they’re trying to help them.


[quote]
TVAA: 8) True. That is in fact what I consider to be almost the defining characteristic of a science; at least, it is absolutely necessary that a field of inquiry to (sic) empirical in order to be a science.

The truth from this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218026&perpage=50&pagenumber=4

You haven’t qualified “psychology” in any way. Yet at other times you distinguish between the scientific value of clinical psychology and cognitive psychology. Aren’t scientists supposed to be specific? But then if you were, you’d be wrong anyway. Rock. Hard place.

I will end with two of my favorite quotes from you, TVAA:

You should not have said I was lying.

Zoe, I can only point out the utter vapidity of your “arguments” so long – if you keep this up long enough, I’m simply going to have to assume you have no interest in the truth.

  1. I am not a professional therapist, clinical psychologist, or psychiatrist. I really don’t know what you think you’ve proven with your references in the preceding post, but they really don’t say anything other than what I’ve been telling you.

  2. An amateur what? You need to be more specific, hon. Again, I am not within any of the professions I’ve listed in response 1).

  3. No, being trained as a cognitive psychologist does not imply further professional development any more than having trained for the priesthood indicates that a person is currently a priest.*

*To any reasonable and intelligent person, so I can understand your difficulties.

  1. To be perfectly frank, I haven’t seen even a hint of a suggestion that either Zoe or Shoshana has the slightest idea what a cognitive psychologist is or does. I agree that there are some stringent rules about claiming professional status in certain types of jobs or roles, but being a scientist is generally not one of them. Now, if I were trying to practice medicine without a license or accept money for services I am not qualified to offer… that’d be a different story.

I agree: this should be obvious to even the rankest amateur, which is why I have been so annoyed by the constant calls for me to explain my credentials. Any common idiot with even a sliver of knowledge in the subject would realize this is pointless, as well as understanding the difference between the distinct fields.

  1. You have a valid point here (for what is possibly the first time in our association). Although I would argue that this is an excellent example of why it’s dangerous to evaluate statements taken out of context, we can resolve this issue by putting the phrase “the clinical applications of” in front of the word ‘psychology’, since that is precisely what was being discussed in the relevant text.

It’s difficult to imagine how a condition such as neurosyphilus or epilepsy could be considered to be “removed” from I/O or cognitive psych. and given to neurology when non-clinical branches of psychology generally don’t concerned themselves with such conditions, but in a limited and pedantic sense you are correct: the word “psychology” should have had a modifier to be completely accurate, and complete accuracy is very important.

  1. It’s not absurd at all. Most professionals involved in the application of psychiatric medicine have little to no knowledge about the history of the field and treatments, both past and present. (As I think the number of posts from supposed “clinical psychologists” in these threads indicates – in general, you haven’t attacked the claims I’ve made except to dismiss them out of hand as being wrong, and you’ve focused instead on attacking me. I’m not sure how this is supposed to reveal your deep understanding of the subject, but I’m sure that will become clear in time.)

  2. Those objections are… well, really dumb. Specifically, Zoe, your questions often have little to do with what was originally said. Perhaps if you had paid closer attention to what the original claims on both sides of the argument were, and the differences between them and the subjects of your questions, you would find it easier to understand my responses.

  3. I find it ironic that you of all people would lecture me on specificity. Indeed, perhaps I should have stated that you’re grossly incompetent, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt and merely say that you were malicious. I stand corrected – you haven’t understood any part of this issue well enough to lie about it.

I’m still not hearing disputes about my actual points…

DSeid, please note that I’m asking these questions in good faith; they’re not intended to be (and shouldn’t be interpreted as) attacks on you, your professional judgment, or your personal code of ethics.

  1. In what way did the medications actually work?
  2. Should Joey’s reduced testing of the family dynamic be interpreted as a good thing or a bad thing?
  3. Are there empirical medical grounds for considering Joey’s response to the medication to be an improvement, or is this a subjective judgment of your own?
  4. Do you anticipate that the changes in Joey will lead to a significantly altered situation at home?
  5. Do you regard the elimination of Joey’s problem behaviors to be a resolution of the problem?
  6. Would the change in Joey remain if he were taken off the medication? If yes, how long would you recommend that he continue taking them? If not, would you recommend that he remain on them indefinitely?

Okay, now here’re the hard ones:

Don’t you think that the emphasis on quick resolution of the perceived problem is at least potentially dangerous?

How do you justify the alteration of Joey’s brain function to resolve a problem when there’s as much reason to consider his environment as his brain as the problem?

Since we all seem to agree that your interpretation of the problem and your solution to it aren’t founded in our ability to identify an underlying physiological malfunction in Joey, how do you ensure that your actions are genuinely benefitting your patients in an objective manner?

DSeid:

Ah, yes…the Guilt. What are we going to do with all that Guilt?

Better not lay it on the parents. They’re doing their utmost, and to find out that Joey’s problems are the fault of their shortcomings just might break them. In fact, they do blame each other a bit, which also threatens the relationship…definitely not good. No, we need another receptacle.

Joey? Come, come, now, he’s just a six-year-old. He can’t help himself. We can’t blame him; it would be cruel.

Hmmmm….

::snaps fingers::

No wait, I’ve got it! We’ll say it’s a biological illness! Then we can blame his genes! No one need feel guilty again, ever – even if they’re at fault! It’s perfect! It’s what the Western world has been waiting for! We can give him a pill! It will be the ANTI-GUILT PILL! So long, Original Sin! Goodbye Blue Monday! Hello, Happy Family!

Truly, we live in the best of all possible Brave New Worlds.

Yeah, better not. Who knows what we might find floating around down there?

I’m not sure what you intend with this criterion. Differences in ratings between various environments are commonplace because behavior is often related to environmental cues. Or, to quote the DSM-IV:

In other words, differences in ratings should be the rule rather than the exception.

How do you know this?

Well, in my hypothetical example I posit that there exists a causal relationship between Joey’s problems and his family’s “dysfunctionality.” But I provided the example to illustrate the case. In real life I would merely posit that in an unknown number of cases, it is possible that such a causal relationship exists. In addition, I’m arguing that the DSM criteria risk making us blind to that causal relationship, because we think in terms of “genetics” and “disorders” isolated from environmental context.

By the way, if we were to employ a modified version of the “tally argument,” my hypothesis can also be falsified in any specific case. We can say: If Joey’s problems are caused by his family’s dysfunctional relationships, then resolving his family’s problems will lead to an improvement in Joey’s condition. So, if Joey’s parents undergo therapeutic intervention and Joey’s problems persist, my hypothesis is thereby falsified. (Ah, the miracle of science.) However, if after therapy Joey’s problems improve, then my etiological hypothesis “remains in the running,” so to speak, as a potential explanation for Joey’s behavioral difficulties.

I’m curious as to why you feel the underlying conflicts in my hypothetical family wouldn’t likely lead to the sorts of problems Joey displays. It seems to me that Joey’s hyperactivity, difficulties in concentrating and so on could easily be understood as the result of a sub-optimal home environment.
greck:

That would seem to me to be the natural way to understand the problem. The ADHD label, in such a case, would only be called for when a dose of family therapy had proven to be ineffective. If we were to rule out the dysfunctionality of the family as a causal factor (in Joey’s case, for example), then it seems to me that the assertion of a biological or genetic component in his disorder would gain in explanatory strength; in fact, I would be at a loss to explain it in any other manner.

Of course, we’re still stuck with those cases where the problems are caused by a combination of environmental and genetic factors, which is most likely the majority. That’s where all of this becomes an extremely sticky wicket.

Back with more as soon as I get the chance.

PS: Zoe and TVAA – could you please continue your argument in the pit thread?

Before getting to your post TVAA, another clarification by way objections to another DSM diagnosis: Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD).

If a child had a pathologic first year, orphange say, and they act socially inappropriate, then they are labelled as RAD. Put my scientist hat on, and ask how often Chinese adoptives have Autistic Spectrum, or ODD, or ADHD. I might find very little as kids with those behaviors and that history are classified as RAD. I might conclude that orphanage rearing protects against ASD etc.! The DSM label is an observation, not a causation.

Now TVAA, your questions as my time allows.

I don’t know how the meds work. Lots of guesses, but they are guesses. Most interesting is some speculation about the role of the cerebellum in all this.

Less stress in the family is a good thing in this case anyway.

We have defined the behaviors as handicapping him, that is why they are being treated. Reduction of handicap is a good thing.

I think that it a reasonable possibility.

Joey’s problems are my focus. Thinking more holistically, I think that it is very likely to help.

Whether or not the changes would persist depends on lots of unknowns. Is he really biologically prone? Do his parents change their dynamic? What happens to his system as he matures? Usually I do not see meds curing anything, I see them treating while they are in use and allowing education and other interventions to do some longer lasting effects.

No, I do not think that helping more quickly is a bad thing.

Whether I do it behaviorally or by meds I am altering brain function. My question is what are the risks and costs and efficacy associated with each type of intervention. Since the stimulants have been in use for many years with little serious long term adverse outcomes, I feel comfortable that the risk/cost is low and the efficacy high.

I ensure that my patient is benefitting by outcome measures. I do not need to know how it works. I need to know that it does and with little risk of harm, and that it accomplishes this balance better that other potential interventions. An example: I do not know how acupuncture works, but I believe the evidence that it does. My acceptace of that evidence is not contigent on my understanding the mechanism or on my accepting the model put forth by Chineses medicine believers.

Not hard at all. But reasonable questions.

Mr. S.:

I appreciate and expected that this was your intention. It would have been successful if you had indicated some known risk factors for impulsive, hyperactive and inattentive behaviors. However, even in your scenario, much of the parental history you describe is irrelevant, since your proposition is that current environmental factors are explanatory of the set of behaviors Joey displays. Close the link for me – how does his father having put his nose to the grindstone to enter a career or the fact that the family does not take vacations have a causal role in ADHD-mimicking behaviors? The relevant information would be those parental behaviors that are currently present and would be causal in shaping the behaviors Joey demonstrates. Here, you will need to help me to believe (i.e. show me, don’t tell me) that ADHD behaviors sufficient for diagnosis, are reliably associated with this family history.

Yes.

In principle, this seems reasonable. In practice, I find that parents are most defensive about their right to use physical punishment. Other than that, there seems to be a range of defensive/non-defensive responding such that I can’t say any one predominates.

But again, by and large, most of the relevant behaviors would be identified. I think that much of what you cite might appear to be more relevant to a psychoanalyst. That, however, is a different kettle of fish, altogether. I need to know. “What are the parents doing now that might cause or exacerbate behavioral problems in their children?” You haven’t really made such clear in your vignette.

Well, simply that the support for ego defenses has just not come through empirically. They have not been borne out as useful constructs in understanding psychopathology. Like DSeid, my experience is to expect a higher degree of psychopathology in parents of children with ADHD related behaviors, and often to find that parental disciplinary conflict involves one parent who tends to be less consistent and attentive, and more impulsive and likely to respond with ire or wrath than give a tempered and thoughtful response.

I really don’t think that you are characterizing the state of standard clinical practice well, unless you are including assessment of “type a personalities” as a standard, or are brushing over all forms of “clinical practice.” I very much want to know about (and typically assess) how parents parent, what conflicts they have, and what their beliefs and explanations are regarding children’s behavior. These will have great bearing on any parent training strategies that I employ with them.

And my experience is that such parenting and such dysfunctional situations are not altogether uncommon, and far outstrip the rate of ADHD. Many, many parents differ in their parenting styles. Many fathers are driven and active, and look to external activities as the context for their interactions with their children. Many parents have had emotionally difficult childhoods. Not all mothers with anxiety problems have children with ADHD. The strength of the DSM is that its users do not identify children in all of these circumstances as having ADHD.

Well, this one isn’t my review, just to be clear! It is Russell Barkley’s, and I had intended to include the specs before. I apologize for not doing so then. Barkley, R.A. (2002). Psychosocial treatments for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in children. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. Vol 63, 36-43.

With all due respect, perhaps it is the circles that you move in. I don’t know if these strategies would be commonly employed by psychoanalysts; I tend to doubt it. Yet they are common among child psychologists here in the US and elsewhere, and are routinely identified as among the most successful.

Is it the case that medication and medication management is significantly cheaper? I really don’t know. I’m sure it varies on a country by country basis, but I don’t think people typically conceive of pharmacotherapy over here as cheap. (I suspect that DSeid probably gets a higher reimbursement rate for a visit to him than I do!)

However, and this is definitely an argument against my own interests, but some might look at the literature and see the clear effects of pharmacotherapy and (mis)perceive less clear evidence for behavioral interventions, and see the lack of evidence that stimulant medication is harmful to children, and make a decision based on this.

The text of the DSM calls for the clinician to make a differential diagnosis, or distinction, in this case, between ADHD behaviors and: age appropriate behaviors, “when children with high intelligence are placed in academically understimulating environments,” and from difficulty for children in inadequate, disorganized or chaotic environments.

Actually, I don’t know where this text appears in the DSM description of ADHD. Do you have a page number or other way I might locate it. There are several historical aspects one must know of. First, and this is moot in this case, since you gave us an age of 6, but symptoms of ADHD must have an onset before the age of 7. The symptoms present over the last six months determine the subtyping of the disorder. One would be remiss if one did not get a history of impairment related to symptoms. A history of the symptoms in multiple settings is necessary. And the descriptive text clearly describes a typical course and familial pattern that a good clinician will assess.

You are right that no criteria regarding healthy parenting is necessary. However, disentangling poor parenting as causal of or caused by ADHD child behavior would be a Herculean effort, no?

Given that therapy is designed to present parents with skills, behaviors and techniques specific to the challenges presented by children with disruptive behavior problems, no change in parent behaviors would indicate a failure of the intervention. No change in child behaviors would indicate that the theoretical mechanism or link between parent strategies and child behavior would be erroneous. Empirically, this is not borne out.

I agree. However, I think that the number of cases of environmental conditions generating symptoms of ADHD sufficient to meet criteria for the disorder is very, very small. The estimated prevalence of the disorder among children cited by the DSM is three to five percent.

I agree.

I disagree (within limits, depending on what you mean by family therapy). However, you have already acknowledged that change may be possible with therapy even for biologically based disorder. Parents may be trained in strategies that minimize the conflict and difficulty that children face.

I believe that it does this sufficiently well, but would be interested in any evidence to the contrary. I am also in the position, since I employ behavioral (including parent training techniques) of having greater exposure to linkages between family and parent behaviors and child behaviors in a specific family, rather than having to decide if I will prescribe medication or not. I do have to decide when to make a referral, and I am very comfortable that a lack of progress with behavioral interventions or a high level of symptom or impairment severity serves as a good marker for making such a referral.

Mr. S.,

We simulposted and I don’t have time to respond fully now, but sarcasm does not become you.

No, not avoid guilt, but reality check. You are an early parent. Wait and start to tally up how you fuck up. We all do. And yet most of us have kids who turn out okay despite us. What you think that a unified front between parents and consistency at all time is the norm. That most of us don’t have bits our history that could be considered dysfunctional. Omigosh, the parents disagree and Dad wants to do different things than Mom. How pathologic, never happens to normal people!

More later. Gotta make a living.

  1. not quite sure what you’re asking

  2. Who said all he was doing was “testing the family dynamic?” his changing a behavior that contributes to dysfunction is a good thing if that’s what is desired. It really depends on what you’re asking.

  3. I personally am pretty comfortable with subjective reports from teacher, parents, other significant adults, maybe siblings, as well as my observations (although those really come last since I don’t see the kid more than an hour or two a week), maybe monitor his grades in class, frequency and quality of homework/classwork.

  4. Shit, I don’t even really know the kid or his family. How do you mean “significantly?” I mean, we didn’t really set up measures for that beyond subjective reports from parents and teacher, the treatment plan and what not; I guess if his treatment goals were met, he’s getting less whoopings or whatever, dad reports feeling a little less stressed and more able to enjoy his son, I’d call that significant.

  5. Depends on what you’re calling “the” problem. ADD? Not likely. Whether it’s a coping strategy or a brain anomaly, it’s likely to be there for a while. If we define the problem behaviors as the problem (as I am wont to do) then, yes, the elimination of the problem behaviors is a resolution of the problem.

  6. Yes and no. Yes, it’s likely that Joey learned something that will be useful when he’s off the meds and some change will remain. No, not all of the changes gained on meds are likely to be present and might have to be reviewed in the new context. I’d recommend that he continue taking them as long as it’s deemed appropriate by his psychiatrist. If I was the psychiatrist, well, that’s a constant balancing act of: side effects and potential harm vs. good gained by taking the meds. So, as long as they’re needed is my official answer.
    A paper on my desk is “at least potentially dangerous” I could get a paper cut for god’s sake. This reminds me of when lawyers on TV ask “isn’t it possible, Doctor that…” it’s almost guaranteed a yes answer. So, yes, it’s at least potentially dangerous.

My real answer: No. I don’t think so.

How do you justify altering an entire environment to suit joey’s needs when there’s as much evidence that his brain function is the problem?
My non smart ass answer to both: it needs to happen. Whether by chemicals, by behavior modification, insight, family therapy, whatever’s most effective and least invasive.

In an objective manner? I personally don’t. I mean, I rely on the treatment goals.
I ask joey, I ask his mom and dad, I ask his teacher, maybe I ask his soccer coach. But remember, Joey’s a therapy client, not a research subject.

“the face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part”
-Jack Handey

I have to admit, DSeid, that I’m disturbed by a few of your responses.

The only defense against the impulse to use medical authority to shape people into what we think they should be is the scientific method. Good intentions aren’t enough, because there’s no way we can ever demonstrate that the things that we value and the ways we think the world should operate are actually right.

Your attitude towards the situation has probably resulted in a lot of good and appropriate treatments in the past, but also a lot of harmful and downright evil ones.

I’m reminded of a primary source I read some time ago entitled Pain and the Neurosurgeon: it was a book written by some neurosurgeons in the 60’s, describing patients they had “helped” throughout the 30’s through the 50’s and justifying their treatment methods. Among other interesting perspectives, they regarded the emotional apathy that resulted from significant surgical damage to the frontal lobes to be a desirable outcome for those terminally ill patients faced with death. Modern ideas about how chronic pain should be treated in the terminally ill are quite different, as are our ideas about the importance of the frontal lobes. Were those doctors justified, or in error?

Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that you really think that affecting brain function through social and environmental interaction is equivalent to affecting brain function pharmacologically. If nothing else, I doubt that you would suggest putting the same restrictions on talking to people as prescribing them drugs, or put as little restrain on prescribing as talking. What about the principle of minimal intervention? Isn’t altering the function of someone’s brain rather invasive, compared with teaching them strategies?

I’m still a little surprised that no one here who has been so huffy about medication has commented on the most important difference in research studies involving placebos and anti-depressants:

The placebo effect doesn’t last. Anti-depressants can and do last, depending, of course, upon the patient.

Someone mentioned – either on this thread or another – delusional mental illness. Is this illness always a personality disorder or can it be paranoid schzophrenia? I know nothing about diagnosis – just enough to know that I’m not qualified and that one can’t ethically do this sort of thing from a distance even if you are a professional.

An acquaintance of mine through another forum was, in my opinion, probably delusional. My first clue should have been when he signed his first post with the words The Prince of Peace.

He was passionately interested in metaphysics – reading and writing beautifully. In a phone conversation once, he mentioned that he thought that three fellow participants were working for the CIA and were out to get him. After that, things deteriorated fairly quickly.

People began to comment to him about how arrogant his posts seemed. He said that we were fools for thinking that.

He began to make accusations about what people had said at the forum that were demonstratably wrong. When confronted with the truth, he called us liars.

When we asked him direct questions in which he would have had to confront any mistakes on his part, he would either ignore them or leave the forum for weeks or months at a time. When he returned, it was always with a great deal of contentiousness.

This particular forum, the most hostile I’ve ever seen, was supposed to be a spiritual forum. It was very important to him to diminish the spiritual experiences of others in comparison to his.

One day, when I had lost it for the umpteenth time, I accused him of having a Messiah complex (junkyard definition). He became enraged. Not only did he not have a complex, but he said that God had actually offered him the Messiahship and that he had turned it down.

Well, I try to keep an open mind. But it seems to me that if he had really been the Messiah, he would have been a little more considerate and not so hateful.

As to ratings: I look for similar patterns in all contexts and some level of dysfunction in all contexts. The exact ratings won’t be the same.

I’ve seen what stimulants do. They allow a child to control themselves if they want to. They don’t control what the kids do. A child who is reacting to the family dynamic isn’t going to have their motivations changed by meds.

The DSM doesn’t make us blind. But it allows us to study the group as a whole and allows us to specify specifics along other axes and otherwise to study subgroups.

In this case I particularly note that he is worse in the school environment. This is inconsistent with your portrayal of the parents having unrealistic expectations. I’d more believe that he’d be ODD than ADD. Hentor said it well, these parents really don’t seem all that much worse than me and my wife. We all have our baggage. Still, it is possible. Or possibly not. I am unconvinced. All I know is that he is better.

Your speculations as to cause are well and good. Your concern about “appropriateness” are well and good. But I care about results, about outcomes. He is functioning in school, he has freinds, he is happier in his family. He isn’t calling himself stupid because he is doing poorly in school. His family is posssibly happier.

Provide me some evidence that weekly family and individual therapy would have done better. Or as much good.

Hentor, I may charge more an hour but I won’t see him every week. The rip-off is in the cost of the meds.

TVAA,
I understand your point although I obviously disagree. I need to know and honestly present the risks vs benfits so that the parents can make an informed decision on their child’s behalf. If I had reason to believe that talk therapy was reasonably effective for ADHD I’d encourage that as a first option. But there is sparse evidence that it does anywhere near as good as a job as medication does. It is a great and often (not always) adjunct. But alone it has been shown to do little. Which should be tried first? An intervention that will tell us if it works or not within weeks? Or one that has a poorer track record and won’t show if it bears fruit or not for a year or more?

DSeid: That’s precisely what I don’t understand about your position. You say that you want to help the hypothetical child and his family; well and good. I’m reasonably certain that you’re sincere in this desire.

You also say that you’re not so concerned with scientific validity. But the validity of the diagnosis is precisely what justifies your intervention – if you can’t confirm that something is actually wrong with a person, there’s no way to determine whether change is the right thing to do.

Granted, every decision has a margin of error, and medical decisions often have large margins of error, but that’s why medical ethics exists.

I don’t need validity in the way that you use the term.

I know that something is wrong with this person. By definition he is handicapped by this condition. Mr. S. responded to my relative reluctance to medicating someone at age six by making it very clear that his behavior was definitely getting in the way of his school, social, and family functioning. He was “pretty disruptive” and “outside the range (of normalcy) and handicapped by his condition.” This is something wrong.

What I do not know is what the cause of this something wrong is. Even though I can name the something wrong. But I do know that of other kids who looked like this (met criteria for ADHD), intervention A (medication) worked well with minimal adverse effects. If all clinicians used the DSM as designed then the diagnosis would be very valid in the sense of the same child being called the same thing by multiple examiners. And I know that this intervention worked well for him.

I believe that you think of validity as knowing the pathophysiology. I’d like to know it, I am very curious. But clinically I do not need to know it in order to treat effectively. Let me illustrate with a whole different condition - migraines.

What causes migraines? Oh we have some good stories - vascular spasm followed by dilation … or maybe 5HT subclass receptors imbalance … but we really do not know and we have no test for it. Migraine is a clinical diagnosis defined by meeting various subjective clinical criteria. I do not really know how the medicines that I prescribe or advise to prevent recurant migraines work. They work no matter what the trigger of the migraines is: hormones, food, stress, blood sugar drops, etc. One of these meds is an herb - feverfew - and I don’t even have a good guess as to how it works. But I know that studies have shown that it does moderately well with little side effects. And some of my patients have used it to good effect. Should I not advise it because I cannot test for migraines? Or because I do not reallyunderstand the pathophysiology? Or how that medication works? Some people with migraines have them as a reaction to psychosocial stress. I try to find triggers but I might miss a major hidden psychosocial stressor in my brief review. Should every migraine patient have a comprensive psych eval and therapy as first line care? Should I withhold medication that works (and works in the brain) because on rare occassion talk therapy might help?