Except, most “Messianistic Jews” aren’t like that. If they said, “Hey, we’re Jews who have converted to Christianity, but still practice Jewish traditions”, I don’t think anybody would have a problem with that. Most of those groups, though, say “We’re Christians, but also still religious Jews”…that they can be Christians and still worship the God of the Bible as Jews.
I expect Gentile Christians to be ignorant of Judaism. I expect them to say things like “Jesus fufilled Jewish scripture” amd “The God of the bible is a trinity”. They were raised to believe that. But for a Jew to say that means that he’s turning his back on his faith and his people and joining a religion that has, for almost all of its history, persecuted and tried to convert Jews. If he wants to practice Christianity, let him practice Christianity. If he wants to practice Judaism, let him practice Judaism. But he can’t do both at the same time.
Like whiterabbit said, all I meant was that it was insulting to imply that Jewish people were “incomplete” or “unfulfilled” in their faith.
The difference is far more fundamental. LDS doctrine does not violate the central tenets of Christianity. As others have pointed out a “Jewish-Christian” is oxymoronic in the same way as an “atheist-theist.” If the term “Jewish” is going to have any definition at all then it can’t be applied to Christians.
That’s what’s linkable on the net. You can accept the cite or reject it (although we both know it’s not really comparable to hate sites habitually linked to by The Doper Formally Known as His4Ever. I can prpbably find more sites (Much of the stuff I’ve seen does not try to paint Messianic Jews as evil, they are only trying to warn people that they don’t really follow Jewish doctrine) but the deceptive practices aren’t that important to me anyway. I’m mostly just trying to argue that they aren’t religious Jews.
They accept Christian doctrine as true, but they accept all religions as true. Even the ones that contradict. They basically see all religious paths as being equally valid if you really believe them. Contradictions don’t matter because it’s all an illusion anyway.
They don’t actually try to convert Christians (or anybody else) but I was stuck to try to find a really precise analogy.
J4J are deceptive in that they don’t reveal themselves as evangelical Christians. They are, in fact, Baptists and they are under the authority of Baptists. They are not a separate quasi-Jewish sect, they are just an evangelical group who tries to convert Jews into Baptists. They are trained to reveal this only in stages. They do not state up front that they are Christians.
As for really believing themselves to be Jewish, I have to ask you, can self-identification ever diverge so radically from core tenets that it’s no longer a meaningful staement?
Also, doesn’t the vast bulk of traditional Judaism get to have a say in what constitutes their own doctrine?
I may be wrong, but on this, I don’t think I’m very far wrong. That’s all I can give you, Ben. I’m not trying to be obtuse. I firmly believe the leadership of these groups are calculatingly using Judaism to sell Christianity, and I honestly can’t figure how they can rationalize it as being ethical. Spread the Gospel if you feel you must – but be honest about what you’re doing.
And on a side topic – the Baha’is are not Muslim, and don’t claim to be. In fact, they’ve had to deal with people lumping them in with the Muslims over the years. But they are an independent religion.
Fenris
I hope I’m not uncovering a previously beaten to death horse with this request, if so, please point me in the right direction and disregard this matter, otherwise I am questioning your referencing the messiah as “king and teacher” when Isaiah appears to prophesized a more expanded role.
The case change in M/messiah is not lost on me.
I assume the case of the first letter in each was intentional to differentiate the two pedigrees of M/messiah… There is no authority in support of a divine Messiah in the OT, and using New Testament as a cites would be inappropriate… However, doesn’t the messiah promised by Isaiah fill a far greater role than that of King and Teacher.
Isa 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isa 53
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth* he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,* and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death;* because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.*
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt* make his soul an offering for sin,* he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Is the reference to the messiah as “the mighty God, the everlasting Father”, (Isa 9:6) consistent with merely “a king and a teacher” or with “100% human?”
Jewish teachings are very clear on what is required of the Messiah. Jesus didn’t do it and being divine wasn’t part of the gig in Jewish thought. Believe in Christ’s divinity if you like, but if you call it a Jewish belief you are just plain wrong. It is a different faith.
Several posters have made it clear why such can be offensive:
J4J are being deceptive.
“Messianic Jews” are, as Allessan points out, “playing for the other team”. They are apostates.
“Completed Jew” is blatantly insulting in its implication. If that is your belief as a new Christian then have the manners to keep it to yourself.
whiterabbit, I think that you have been very appropriate and well spoken. Don’t let a few comments intimidate you from sticking with GDs.
Beryl,
Your passages from Isaiah 53 do not refer to the messiah in Jewish interpretation. The “he” therein is a personification of Israel, itself. The chapter is about the suffering unjustly inflicted on Israel by gentile nations. It is not a prophesy of the messiah.
Ben
Do you believe there can be biblical literalist, fundimentalist Christian athiests?
No prob, and I’ll do my best, but I’m NOT a Biblical scholar…if Zev (for example) comes along and says “Fenris is wrong on this one…here’s the right answer”, believe him!"
The upshot is that you’re using a Christian translation of Isaiah 9:6. The Jewish version of the verse (from the Masoretic Text) goes:
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom
That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts doth perform this. *
*“Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom” translates into “Wonderful in Counsel is G-d Almighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.”
This page has a brief discussion of the passage. (Note that I don’t vouch for the rest of the site…I can’t figure out exactly what/who they are offhand.)
In part, the author says
Which pretty much matches my understanding.
This page has an extremely exhaustive discussion of the passage word by word, and comparing the individual Hebrew words to the KJV and the Jewish version.
Also note that the phrase “Son of God” meant “someone in compliance with God’s laws”. IIRC Solomon was called a “Son of God” in one passage.
What difference does it make what I believe, Ben? What matter is that by the Jewish faith, Christ is NOT the Messiah.
Now, Messianic Jews could probably be called more Hebrew Christians, or what have you. But they ARE Christians, not JEWS.
They MIGHT be ethnic or lapsed Jews. But religion wise, they’re Christian.
Because by the tenants of the Jewish faith, Christ cannot be the Messiah.
It is NOT remotely the the same thing as saying Mormons can’t be Christians-they believe in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God and their Savior. THAT is what it means to be Christian.
However, someone cannot claim to be Christian if he or she believes, say, that Christ is NOT the son of God and is only a prophet sent by God. Because THAT violates the core tenants of the faith.
It is the core of the faith-the exact specific thing that makes it what it is. Everyone who tries to say Mormons or Catholics or Protestants or Orthodox aren’t Christian are quibbling about everything ELSE besides the very basic beliefs.
To say that one can believe in Christ as the Son of God, the Messiah and the Savior and still be Jewish-well, then you might as well call EVERYONE a Jew. You can’t keep diluting words and definitions down-otherwise, it’s meaningless.
Now, each SECT and DENOMINATION has different meanings. Like, for example, a Mormon cannot be a Catholic and still be a Mormon, and vice versa. (Well, you’d still be a CAtholic, but a lapsed or heretic one).
I have a better understanding of what seemed, at first, inconsistent. I believe that truths are harmonious (must be) within any belief. I now see the harmony in your writing that I had missed before.
Thanks.
Wouldn’t calling yourself a Messianic Jew be akin to calling yourself a Carnivorous Vegetarian?
In the Portland area on cable public access television there are several “Jews For Jesus” programs on(though they never come out and say so). The fake accents are ridiculous, and the sets look like a cross between the PTL Club at its overextravagant worst and some bigots idea of what a temple might look like.
I’m afraid I haven’t been able to give this thread the attention it deserves, because I’ve had a fever. I’ve been thinking over what’s been said here, and I’d like to clarify my position tomorrow, but for now I’d like to ask:
Was Rabbi Akiva Jewish?
Maybe I’m being totally naive, but I thought for sure he was.
He most certainly was.
To fill those in on what I believe Ben’s question is:
Rabbi Akiva was a very famous Rabbi who lived circa 100 CE. You can barely turn two pages of the Talmud without coming across his name. He is one of the most respected sages in Jewish history.
Rabbi Akiva was of the opinion that Bar Kochba (aka Bar Koziva, the leader of the Jewish Rebellion against the Romans) was the messiah. However, in answer to Ben’s question, Rabbi Akiva dropped the idea when Bar Kochba was killed without having accomplished what the messiah was supposed to accomplish.
I imagine you’re going to ask about his belief in Shimon bar Kobha as the Messiah. He did believe that, but he didn’t* believe that bar Kobha was God and he didn’t believe that bar Kobha was a “savior” in the sense of a redeemer of sins. The Jewish Messiah cannot redeem sins.
You can be wrong about who the Messiah is and remain Jewish. You cannot worship that person (whether he really is the Messiah or he isn’t) and remain religiously Jewish.
Also, there’s a difference between mistakenly believing that an individual will fulfill the prophesies of the Messiah and asserting that an individual has fulfilled those prophesies when he clearly hasn’t.
Christians have a different definition of the Messiah than Judaism does.
Belief that the Messiah is God, etc. etc. is irrelevant. According to Maimonides, you can’t believe that the Messiah has come at all.
**
Sure, there’s a difference, but as I understand it, all that’s irrelevant to the question of who is or is not Jewish.
Yes, I believe I’ve already said that I’m aware of that. In fact, I’ve even said in the past that Christianity is a fundamentally irrational religion, because it’s so obvious that Jesus isn’t the Jewish Messiah. I’d even go far as to suggest that Christianity is fundamentally dishonest, in that its falsity is so obvious to anyone who reads the Bible that anyone who is a Christian is either lying to themself about what they find there, or they aren’t taking their religion seriously.
What about believers in Christian Science? Are they Christians?
And since no one has answered yet, let me ask again:
What about the Lubavitchers? Are they practicing Judaism? I assume they’re Jewish. (And to clarify my earlier question, when I ask whether Akiva was Jewish, what I mean is, was he practicing Judaism? It seems pretty clear to me that according to Maimonides, he simply wasn’t.)
