Meth addicts with kids

[Hamadryad]

@Contrapuntal

Right. People get to do with their kids whatever they want because they, like, own them, right? Are there any situations that you would condemn?

Oh, for fuck’s sake. ACTUAL meth-addicted parents? Alcoholic dad who beats up mom? Or the kids? Or rapes the kids? Parents who just don’t give a fuck?

Christ. I’m not sure how fucking around with spousal consent became a greater tragedy than death and dismemberment.

[lokij]

@Contrapuntal

Right. People get to do with their kids whatever they want because they, like, own them, right? Are there any situations that you would condemn?

I’m going to assume you’re just a harmless idiot and answer your incredibly inane question. No Contrapuntal… there are, of course, certain things you aren’t allowed to do to your children because they Directly and Unambiguously physically and or emotionally harm the children. Things like this would include but are not limited to physical abuse, neglect, deprivation or being forced to read your posts.

Now, if you’re not a harmless idiot and you are deliberately putting words in my mouth and or taking this single statement out of context (which, for your convenience was directed expressly at Diogenes and his peculiar views regarding the children of poly folks), I’ll just cheerfully tell you to fuck off.

[Dangerosa]

@WhyNot

Now see THAT finally makes sense. I agree.

If someone extolled the virtues of monogomy and told their kid that their father was the only person for them, while shagging someone else on the side, that’s going to lead to a betrayal and trouble when it comes out. The problem is not the affair, it’s the lying.

I also think that parents need to think about their specific children as individual people, and to make judgement calls and determine what is right for each child as a unique human being. Only then can an adult decide how much information, in what language and context and with what explanations a child needs.

My son knows my husband and I are of the opinion that monogamy is not for everyone. We have a silly saying in our house: “Another problem solved by polyamory!” whenever we see a lyin’, cheatin’ whorin’ betrayin’ plot, or an angsty “love triangle” on TV or a movie. He knows that we consider sex a beautiful, fun and wonderful part of consenting people’s lives, whether they’re gay or straight, single or in groups. He knows we think little of people who view other people as possessions. (And we’re clear that not that all monogomists do this, but some do, as do some polyamorists, interestingly enough.) His best friends have three parents, as do a number of his acquaintances (it comes with the neopagan territory). He also knows his own parents have time away from the house with people of the opposite gender.

Has he put it all together yet? I don’t know. But I think he’s received enough of the puzzle pieces that it won’t be a huge shock. While we’re discrete about our partners, we’ve definitely laid a good groundwork for acceptance. We have not lied to or decieved him in any way whatsoever. He has grown up, unlike many kids, knowing that “married” does not necessarily mean “sexually exclusive”, and that whatever the form a relationship takes, honesty and communication are the most important elements in it.

I mean, really. We all figured out Liberace was gay without him telling us, right? My kid’s not dumb. If he hasn’t brought it up yet, it’s because he’s not ready to talk about it yet.

This is probably pretty key. Most poly relationships I know don’t happen in a vaccuum. You don’t assume your mom and dad are June and Ward Cleaver and wake up one day to discover they host S&M parties. Your parents illustrate their alternativeness in other ways growing up. And the group of people they hang around with have non-mainstream views on sex. So you may not know that YOUR parents have an open relationship, but you know it occurs - as do a number of non-mainstream lifestyle practices - and it isn’t that much of a shock when its your parents.

(Every poly relationship I’ve been exposed to is either in SF fandom circles or in pagan circles or both. And, in my experience, while they aren’t the norm in such circles, they are common enough to be not a huge source of gossip…oh, you didn’t know their relationship was open?)

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@lokij

I have kids. Two. I think you’re a bombastic cretin who has serious emotional issues with regards to sex. Stay the hell away from my kids, you puritanically closeted perv.

Jesys Christ. Put down the bottle, it’s the middle of the afternoon.

My father passed away when I was 15… since he died I’ve found out alot about him that I didn’t know growing up, like for instance that I have a half sister out there somewhere I’ll never meet. Of all the things I learned not ONE ever ‘devastated’ me or came close to the faintest shadow of the pain I felt when he died.

And your point is…?

Shut your filthy mouth you judgmental prick and let people live their lives and raise their children how they see fit without your worthless condemnation.

I’m not trying to stop anybody from doing anything.

If any children of poly people DO feel shame and or hurt it’s probably because assholes like yourself who project their own insecurities and moral judgments onto them and that makes you the problem, not their parents.

I haven’t said anything about children of poly people.

[Billdo]

I think that there is onething about Dio’s argument that you’re all missing.

Don’t you all know that the rules require that that when a child finds out that his or her parents have a polyamorous the child is thereafter required to wear a large scarlet ‘P’ firmly attached to his or her outer garment until he or she turns 21 or is awarded a bachelor’s degree, whichever comes first.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

I haven’t said anything about polyamourous relationships.

[Contrapuntal]

**Hamadryad **and lokij,

Whether or not I am a harmless idiot is a question for wiser heads than mine. I suspect that I am neither completely harmless, nor completely idiotic, if that helps.

I was just trying to get a range finder on what letting them raise their kids themselves entails. Or, to put it another way, under what conditions does one not let them raise their kids themselves? Or, on the third hand, exactly how is Dio preventing anyone from doing anything at all?

As to this response –

(which, for your convenience was directed expressly at Diogenes and his peculiar views regarding the children of poly folks)

you do realize that you are posting on a public message board, right? I suspect that any attempt on your part to alter the rules of engagement will be futile.

[mischievous]

While it may be far too late in this discussion for this comment to matter, I’d like to insert a single data point to the otherwise rampant speculation:

I was born into a crazy-hippie-gay/bi/straight-polyamorous commune. It was clear to me from as long ago as I can remember that many of my parents were fucking each other in various combinations, as well as sleeping with other people outside of the commune. Sex was always portrayed as positive, loving, fun behavior which healthy adults engage in but which is no business of children. I’m not sure how I “found out” that my parents were poly, since I never requested or was given details (no, I was not in a “sexualized” environment). I do know that however I figured it out, it was such a non-tramatic event that I have no recollection of it.

I was introduced to people of emotional import to my parents - long term lovers, friends, whatever. I’m assuming they had short-term affairs that I’ve never known or cared about. I’ve never been ashamed of their behaviors. I was brought up to beleive that sex is FUN, and anyone who is ashamed of happy happy fun is a little bit odd. I did have one parent who was a “slut”, which in my lexicon was someone having indiscriminate sex, and he was regarded as unhealthy by myself and my other parents because his behavior was compulsive, not because it was sexual.

I was surrounded by people who loved me and I felt safe and secure. While I fully understood that my family was far outside the norm, I just thought that was damn cool. I made a game of putting down different parent’s names on any school form given to me (keep’em guessing!).

After the commune broke up, I was raised by a number of different parents, most importantly my real mother. She eventually married and formed a (as far as I know) monogamous relationship with my stepfather. Many years later, another woman tried to initiate a relationship with my stepfather. I do not know if he did, in fact, cheat on my mother, but he was definitely enjoying and encouraging her behavior. Even though my mother and stepfather have healed their relationship, I still hate that woman and I’m still angry with him for hurting and betraying my mother.

Parents who love and care for their children aren’t going to tramatise them much with sexual revelations. Sex lives just aren’t really very relevant. Betrayal and pain ARE relevant, but those can occur in any type of relationship.

Just my two cents.

mischievous

[brownie55]

@Contrapuntal

**Hamadryad **and lokij,

Whether or not I am a harmless idiot is a question for wiser heads than mine. I suspect that I am neither completely harmless, nor completely idiotic, if that helps.

I was just trying to get a range finder on what letting them raise their kids themselves entails. Or, to put it another way, under what conditions does one not let them raise their kids themselves? Or, on the third hand, exactly how is Dio preventing anyone from doing anything at all?

Oh, fucking grow up. You saw the context that lokij’s post was made in. Hint it was all about the constraints of this thread. Yet you deliberately tried to extend it to every situation. Don’t be a fucking ass. You took it out of context and you have been called on it.

Happy now?

[Contrapuntal]

@brownie55

Oh, fucking grow up. You saw the context that lokij’s post was made in. Hint it was all about the constraints of this thread. Yet you deliberately tried to extend it to every situation. Don’t be a fucking ass. You took it out of context and you have been called on it.

Happy now?

As happy as I ever am.

Can you answer the question? Where do you draw the line? Or are you just popping in to garble a little syntax?

[WhyNot]

@mischievous

I made a game of putting down different parent’s names on any school form given to me (keep’em guessing!).

You know, this *exact *example was once given to me in a polyfamily debate as evidence of how screwed up poly kids are. I’m sorry to inform you that, apparently, you had no idea who was in your family or who wasn’t, and you were so confused and traumatized by it that you were incapable of telling a school official who your “real” parents were. It’s a sign of deep seated psychosis and borderline personality disorder, dontchaknow. :rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing your 2 cents. I think it was worth a buck fifty, myself.

[mischievous]

@WhyNot

You know, this *exact *example was once given to me in a polyfamily debate as evidence of how screwed up poly kids are. I’m sorry to inform you that, apparently, you had no idea who was in your family or who wasn’t, and you were so confused and traumatized by it that you were incapable of telling a school official who your “real” parents were. It’s a sign of deep seated psychosis and borderline personality disorder, dontchaknow. :rolleyes:

Are you serious??? People really argue that elementry students playing merry havoc with stupid forms that DON’T FIT THEIR FAMILIES means they don’t know who those families are?

Thanks for sharing your 2 cents. I think it was worth a buck fifty, myself.

I’ll expect a check in the mail. Mostly because my newly revealed deep-seated psychosis and borderline personality disorder have somehow destroyed the professional respect, evident prosperity, and loving relationship that I’ve been enjoying for over a decade now. It’s your fault for telling me how fucked up I really am.

mischievous