Is polygamy inherently bad for women and children?

[Unauthorized_Cinnamon]

From this thread, regarding a tv show about polygamy which is consented to by all parties:

@Diogenes the Cynic

The fact that some women might (superficially) seem to accept being degraded in such a fashion does not make the practice less degrading to them. It’s also a crime.

I just can’t feel any sympathy for a guy who would treat women this way and I shudder to think what it does to any children.

<snipping intervening posts>

Women only agree to crap like that if they were raped as toddlers or something. It’s not healthy or normal. People make the same excuse about women who do porn. They seem to be doing it voluntarily but the majority of them are reenacting some kind of childhood trauma. A normal, healthy woman would normal self-esteem does not want to be part of a harem.

Maybe I’m being wooshed by that last paragraph, it seems awfully over the top. Nevertheless, it’s an interesting issue.

Can polygamy be as good as monogamy (serial or otherwise) for women and children?

I’m inclined to say yes. When I was working full time as a lawyer, I would say that I wish my husband and I had a wife to take care of the home while we both worked. Now that I stay at home to raise my two year old, I see great benefit in having several women functioning as a family unit under the same roof. IMHO, we have not evolved to care for small children and household duties in isolation the way modern American life sets us up. It would be thrilling to have other wives to rotate childcare with. The house might even be somewhat clean! And I see it being a benefit to the children - always having someone related to care for them, even when one or more moms work outside the home.

My problem, of course, is with jealousy. Maybe it’s inherent in my neurological makeup, maybe it’s due to social indoctrination, maybe a combination. But I’d have a hard time with my husband caring as much about other wives and having sex with them. IIRC, Bertrand Russell had a similar view - polygamy would be great - if we weren’t so jealous.

Now, I’m not a fan of Mormon polygamy, because it does seem empirically tied to child brides and involuntary matrimony. I’m not for secret polygamy, because that breaks a very important bond of trust in a marriage. But polygamy where all participants agree? Why not?

As for the comments by Diogenes the Cynic, I think they are factually wrong, and perhaps more disturbing, are exemplary of the false consciousness theory of feminism, which states that women who want stereotypically feminine roles are deluded, and that feminist theorists know much better what the poor misguided women really want. It disgusted me when I first read of it, and it disgusts me in this instance too.

[John_Mace]

@AerynSun

As for the comments by Diogenes the Cynic, I think they are factually wrong, and perhaps more disturbing, are exemplary of the false consciousness theory of feminism, which states that women who want stereotypically feminine roles are deluded, and that feminist theorists know much better what the poor misguided women really want. It disgusted me when I first read of it, and it disgusts me in this instance too.

Of course they are factually wrong. You weren’t being whooshed, but you have to understand Diogenes. He often makes sweepingly broad, categorical statements like the one you quoted. “Women only agree to crap like that if…”. Only? There isn’t even one instance when it wasn’t true?

But, irrespective of Diogenes’ statment, you still ask an interesting question. I don’t think its inherently bad, but it sure seems to load the deck in that direction. I’m also not sure we’ve ever had legalized polygamy within a Western-style legal system that could guarantee equal rights for women. That would probably make a significant difference. Then one might ask: how many women would choose polygamy? Problably not many, athough we could have some really interesting Reality TV shows. Who wants to be my 5th wife? Or, *The Bachelor *could stop at any point as say: I’m going to marry them all.

[Kimstu]

@AerynSun

Can polygamy be as good as monogamy (serial or otherwise) for women and children?

I’m inclined to say yes. When I was working full time as a lawyer, I would say that I wish my husband and I had a wife to take care of the home while we both worked. Now that I stay at home to raise my two year old, I see great benefit in having several women functioning as a family unit under the same roof. IMHO, we have not evolved to care for small children and household duties in isolation the way modern American life sets us up. It would be thrilling to have other wives to rotate childcare with. The house might even be somewhat clean! And I see it being a benefit to the children - always having someone related to care for them, even when one or more moms work outside the home.

What you seem to be talking about is co-housing or a kibbutz, not polygamy. Setting up your household so that there are more than two adults to help run it is one thing. Expanding your marriage to include more than two people is another. As you note, it has some fairly major emotional issues attached.

I’m not saying that polygamy (or, strictly speaking, polygyny, since we seem to be talking only about multiple wives here) necessarily has to be bad for any of the people involved. I just can’t imagine why anyone would go that route if all they’re really after is having more people to share housework and childcare with. There are simpler ways to achieve that goal that don’t involve having third parties officially becoming part of your most intimate and close adult relationship.

[D_Odds]

Polygamy, where it occurs in the US, is bad. First, many (from what I’ve read) US polygamists are not economically fit to handle multiple wives and children from the marriages. Second, if the husband does have benefits, only his primary (first?) spouse has rights to those. Third, should he die, his primary wife has claim on his property. This does not even account for the circumstances in the US which place some (many?) women in plural marriages. (See Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer).

Outside the US, the places that I know practice polygamy do not respect women’s rights. So while practitioners may be better able to care for multiple wives financially, women are little more than property. It’s like owning several cars.

I’m all for letting consenting adults, given full details, being able to make decisions. If a woman, for whatever reason, freely consents to being a plural wife, I don’t like blocking that decision. However, few make that decision (in the US) freely. Those raised in plural soceities are conditioned to that point of view from birth, and are not always given a choice in the matter. Perhaps somewhere, plural marriage as equals has worked. I’m not aware of it.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

My problem, of course, is with jealousy. Maybe it’s inherent in my neurological makeup, maybe it’s due to social indoctrination, maybe a combination. But I’d have a hard time with my husband caring as much about other wives and having sex with them. IIRC, Bertrand Russell had a similar view - polygamy would be great - if we weren’t so jealous.

Now, I’m not a fan of Mormon polygamy, because it does seem empirically tied to child brides and involuntary matrimony. I’m not for secret polygamy, because that breaks a very important bond of trust in a marriage. But polygamy where all participants agree? Why not?

It sounds like you agree with me. You even admit yopu’d be jealous. Well, bingo, there you go. That’s the healthy way to feel. Women who think it’s ok to be denied exclusivity in a relationship feel that way because they’re not healthy.

Healthy, independent, femist women do not think it’s ok to be part of some pig’s harem.

[FinnAgain]

@Diogenes the Cynic

It sounds like you agree with me. You even admit yopu’d be jealous. Well, bingo, there you go. That’s the healthy way to feel. Women who think it’s ok to be denied exclusivity in a relationship feel that way because they’re not healthy.

Would you, perhaps, like to Pit the SDMB poly community instead of insulting them in GD? Believe it or not, perfectly healthy people have different emotional responses than you do.

@Diogenes the Cynic

Healthy, independent, femist women do not think it’s ok to be part of some pig’s harem.

Interesting that you should say that, as polygamy includes people of either sex having multiple spouses. Odd bit of sexism there that you’re only talking about men with multiple wives.

[Bricker]

@Diogenes the Cynic

It sounds like you agree with me. You even admit yopu’d be jealous. Well, bingo, there you go. That’s the healthy way to feel. Women who think it’s ok to be denied exclusivity in a relationship feel that way because they’re not healthy.

Healthy, independent, femist women do not think it’s ok to be part of some pig’s harem.

Not to speak for AerynSun, but I do not read her comments as agreeing with you. She says that while she, personally, would be jealous, she feels that polygamy where all participants agree would be fine. You suggest that such agreement invariably shows a damaged psyche of some kind; AerynSun says it’s not for her, but she sees no such flaw with it. That is the basis of her disagreement with you.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Incidentally, I’ve lived in a country where polygamy was legal. I lived for two years in Liberia where the law allowed a man to have as many wives as he could financially support. Istill have friend (who now lives in the states) who came from a polygamous family with lots of different “mothers.” From what I saw when I visited his home, the women were all pretty subservient.

The women who participate in this are willing but then again, they’re also quite willing to have their clits chopped off with sharp rocks.

[BabaBooey]

@Diogenes the Cynic

You even admit yopu’d be jealous. Well, bingo, there you go. That’s the healthy way to feel. Women who think it’s ok to be denied exclusivity in a relationship feel that way because they’re not healthy.

Not that I have any interest in polygamy, but replace “jealous” with “disgusting” and similar arguments could and have been made against homosexuality. What business is it of yours what consenting adults do? Alcoholism certainly isn’t healthy, should it be illegal for women to marry alcoholics (barring abuse)? You praise femenism, but you give the impression that you think women are too weak or stupid to make their own decisions.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Bricker

Not to speak for AerynSun, but I do not read her comments as agreeing with you. She says that while she, personally, would be jealous, she feels that polygamy where all participants agree would be fine. You suggest that such agreement invariably shows a damaged psyche of some kind; AerynSun says it’s not for her, but she sees no such flaw with it. That is the basis of her disagreement with you.

She agreed that the Mormon version (and what other version would there be in the US) is crepy. She also admitted that she couldn’t do it herself.

I think she sees the flaw but just doesn’t realize she sees the flaw.

[Kalhoun]

@Diogenes the Cynic

It sounds like you agree with me. You even admit yopu’d be jealous. Well, bingo, there you go. That’s the healthy way to feel. Women who think it’s ok to be denied exclusivity in a relationship feel that way because they’re not healthy.

Healthy, independent, femist women do not think it’s ok to be part of some pig’s harem.

You’re speaking as someone who has been influenced by traditional thinking to the point where other ideas don’t seem feasible to you. There are, in fact, plenty of people who can and do live this way, and they’re able to see the benefits and not experience jealosy.

It ain’t my bag, but it would be nice if the government offered the option to people who want to go this route. The problem of protecting all parties in case of divorce is solvable, but our government has a very narrow view of how families should be constructed. This is another one of those “none of your business” areas that the government needs to back away from unless they want to help.

[Captain_Amazing]

@D_Odds

Polygamy, where it occurs in the US, is bad. First, many (from what I’ve read) US polygamists are not economically fit to handle multiple wives and children from the marriages. Second, if the husband does have benefits, only his primary (first?) spouse has rights to those. Third, should he die, his primary wife has claim on his property. This does not even account for the circumstances in the US which place some (many?) women in plural marriages. (See Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer).

How much of that, though, is due to the fact that polygamy is illegal in the US, and that our legal system (welfare benefits, inheritance laws, etc.) is set up assuming monogamy? In other words, if polygamy became legal, and the laws were changed to accomodate it, I think some of the problems you mention would go away.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@FinnAgain

Would you, perhaps, like to Pit the SDMB poly community instead of insulting them in GD? Believe it or not, perfectly healthy people have different emotional responses than you do.

Interesting that you should say that, as polygamy includes people of either sex having multiple spouses. Odd bit of sexism there that you’re only talking about men with multiple wives.

This sprang from a discussion of an HBO show about a man with multiple wives.

And the reality is that, in practice, polygamy almost always means men with multiple wives. I’ve heard of polyandry existing historically in some remote parts of India and Nepal but I think the practice is rare to non-existent even there these days.

In the US, I think such a practice would be little more than theoretical.

[Bricker]

@Diogenes the Cynic

She agreed that the Mormon version (and what other version would there be in the US) is crepy.

Aren’t there several poly members here on the Dope that are not Mormon?

[Kimstu]

I had a roommate once from Mali, where there’s an interesting spectrum of possibilities in the marriage laws. When a man gets married for the first time, he has to specify whether the marriage is monogamous or polygamous. If the former, he can’t take another wife without divorcing the first one. If the latter, he can marry up to three other women. (There is no comparable arrangement for multiple husbands.)

My roommate’s marriage was monogamous, and she said that the polygamous marriages did tend to be pretty power-imbalanced. I’m not saying it has to be unhealthy to be part of a harem, but I think that in unequal, patriarchal societies, participation in polygamy is probably not an independent, free choice for most of the women who are doing it.

I do see a fundamental inequality in any situation where one participant is allowed more than one sex partner and the other participants aren’t. But I also think that it’s probably too sweeping to talk about “the” healthy way to feel. For instance, I could envision a scenario like, say, a really close, equal, mutual three-way relationship between a heterosexual man and two bisexual women, or vice versa. Would that necessarily be “unhealthy”? I don’t see why.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@BabaBooey

Not that I have any interest in polygamy, but replace “jealous” with “disgusting” and similar arguments could and have been made against homosexuality. What business is it of yours what consenting adults do? Alcoholism certainly isn’t healthy, should it be illegal for women to marry alcoholics (barring abuse)? You praise femenism, but you give the impression that you think women are too weak or stupid to make their own decisions.

Oh, bullshit. I haven’t said anything about legislation or making anything “my business.” I can think something is creepy without thinking it should be illegal.

[Lilairen]

@AerynSun

Can polygamy be as good as monogamy (serial or otherwise) for women and children?

For those people who want that sort of thing.

I would certainly love to be able to offer legal protection and familial status to other partners than my husband. While I do not currently have another partner I would propose to (broke up with my boyfriend of five and a half years in December), it would not surprise me if I felt that way in the future.

Now that I stay at home to raise my two year old, I see great benefit in having several women functioning as a family unit under the same roof.

Keep in mind that “polygamy” is a gender-neutral term. If you want to talk only about polygyny, then I haven’t got much to contribute, as while my straight partners have frequently been polygynous, I am not. (My sexual partners have all been male; I also have a genderqueer partner.)

And I see it being a benefit to the children - always having someone related to care for them, even when one or more moms work outside the home.

One or more parents work outside the home, please. There’s no point in dragging sexism into it. Stay-at-home-Dads exist, and a multi-income household is multi-income no matter what the genitalia are on the wage-earners.

My problem, of course, is with jealousy. Maybe it’s inherent in my neurological makeup, maybe it’s due to social indoctrination, maybe a combination. But I’d have a hard time with my husband caring as much about other wives and having sex with them.

My experience is that jealousy is a normal emotional response to having something of one’s own threatened. I get jealous when my relationships are unstable and insecure; if the relationship is healthy, I don’t. A lot of people have an emotional equivalence between non-exclusivity and insecurity; I can’t say I get this (as I do not value exclusivity; I consider it a slight negative in many circumstances), but it’s at least mainstream. I know people who have broken that link with significant work, and other people who just don’t think it’s worth bothering with – either because they prefer monogamy, or prefer to only have one spousal relationship.

I know that my relationship with my husband is stable and secure, and I have over a decade of experience to back that up. His other partners aren’t threats to me or to us. I am fairly confident in my relationship with my lover, despite the fact that that relationship is fairly new; it’s based on several years of established friendship. I was not confident in my relationship with my boyfriend, which caused flares of jealousy on and off through the course of the relationship and eventually undermined it to the point that it failed.

As for the comments by Diogenes the Cynic, I think they are factually wrong, and perhaps more disturbing, are exemplary of the false consciousness theory of feminism, which states that women who want stereotypically feminine roles are deluded, and that feminist theorists know much better what the poor misguided women really want. It disgusted me when I first read of it, and it disgusts me in this instance too.

Entirely agreed.

But I’m just part of “some pig’s harem”, never mind that I am actually pursuing what I want to have in my life; what do I know?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Bricker

Aren’t there several poly members here on the Dope that are not Mormon?

Swinging isn’t the same as polygamy. Not that I have any respect for swinging.

[BrainGlutton]

Male and female babies are born in roughtly equal numbers. If polygyny (1 man, several wives) is practiced on a wide scale, there will be a shortage of women and many men will be condemned to lifelong bachelorhood. That can lead to short tempers and frequent feuds. Which probably accounts, in part, for the bloody history of many cultures that have practiced it.

[Lilairen]

@Bricker

Aren’t there several poly members here on the Dope that are not Mormon?

My experience is that next to no polyamorous people are Mormon, and the ones that are are not Mormon patriarchal polgynists, but just normal people-who-happen-to-be-LDS.

My experience is of a higher number of pagans and atheists than my understanding of what is common to the general population, but I know most of the polyfolks I know through the internet, which also has a higher number of pagans and atheists than my understanding of the general population. The Christians I’ve encountered have tended to be from more liberal denominations, but this is far from a universal. I also know some Jewish polyfolks, mostly Conservative and Reform. Not sure about other backgrounds, though I’m sure I’ve met people from them.