Mexico to distribute survival kits

[deb2world]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
**Isolationism? I don’t suppose you’re familiar with a little place called Ellis Island? If I recall correctly millions of immigrants from other nations passed through there over the years. DOesn’t sound so isolationist to me.
**

As you may remember Ellis Island was closed in 1924. At one time the US was a nation that welcomed immigrants “Give me your tired. your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free…” but now the US has changed to a nation that does not want immigrants. What I was talking about with our isolationist viewpoint is the present not the past. People have the belief that this nation is full and that we shouldn’t let more in. I know that we currently still have immigration but it is on a much more strict level with job skill and education requirements needed.

[Odesio]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by deb2world *
**

As you may remember Ellis Island was closed in 1924. At one time the US was a nation that welcomed immigrants “Give me your tired. your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free…” but now the US has changed to a nation that does not want immigrants.

**

Sure, but I don’t recall immigration coming to a grinding halt because of it.

**
What I was talking about with our isolationist viewpoint is the present not the past. People have the belief that this nation is full and that we shouldn’t let more in. I know that we currently still have immigration but it is on a much more strict level with job skill and education requirements needed.
**

I don’t believe that being against immigration is necessarily an isolationist attitude. And isolationist doesn’t want to be involved in the affairs or tradeing with other nations. Someone can be against illegal immigration, or even legal immigration, without being an isolationist.

And I can’t say I see anything wrong with limiting the number of people who come into the country every year.

Marc

[vivalostwages]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MGibson *
**

*Originally posted by deb2world *
**

As you may remember Ellis Island was closed in 1924. At one time the US was a nation that welcomed immigrants “Give me your tired. your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free…” but now the US has changed to a nation that does not want immigrants.

**

Sure, but I don’t recall immigration coming to a grinding halt because of it.

**
What I was talking about with our isolationist viewpoint is the present not the past. People have the belief that this nation is full and that we shouldn’t let more in. I know that we currently still have immigration but it is on a much more strict level with job skill and education requirements needed.
**

I don’t believe that being against immigration is necessarily an isolationist attitude. And isolationist doesn’t want to be involved in the affairs or tradeing with other nations. Someone can be against illegal immigration, or even legal immigration, without being an isolationist.

And I can’t say I see anything wrong with limiting the number of people who come into the country every year.

Marc **

Or into California, for that matter.
I read you, Marc. CA is a finite space, and we can’t defy the laws of physics by cramming more and more people–whether they came legally or illegally–into that space. The space would become unliveable for all but the wealthy few who can ensconce themselves behind walls and gates. I see nothing wrong with imposing some limits, and I would say the same thing even if we weren’t in the midst of various crises (energy, housing, medical, etc.).

[Badtz_Maru]

*Originally posted by sailor *
** >> How hard is it to legally immigrate to the U.S. from Mexico?

How about extremely hard? Or do you believe Mexicans are idiots who risk their lives because they can’t be bothered with filling in some forms? And US immigration spends millions to keep out people whose only qualification is they refuse to fill out a form?

Yes, of course many foreigners make it legally. For every one that makes it legally hundreds are denied visas. The fact that you know one who made it here legally means close to nothing. If you were in Mexico you’d know all the ones who were denied. Many of the illegals were denied visas.

Go to http://travel.state.gov/visa_bulletin.html and you can see Mexicans being given visas today have been waiting from 08OCT89 in the worst case to 22OCT94 in the best. The very lucky ones waited 7 years to get a visa, the lucky got it in 12 years, and the rest never got it.

Your post makes as much sense as what was said in another thread:

• 1 in 250 Americans are in jail

• That can’t be true, there are more than 250 people where I work and none are in jail.

<sigh> **

You are reading WAY too much into my post. I was simply asking how hard it is to get in legally. I’d ask my friend, but he was a kid when he came over and he’s living 50 miles away right now.

[Sterra]

*Originally posted by tracer *
**CBEscapee wrote:

Imagine the gall of sneaking back into territory that was once their own.

I don’t think any Mexican alive today was around back in 1848. **

Cite?

[SuaSponte]

So far, the OP and the responses are all discussing the question “is it proper for the Mexican government to protect its citizens when they try to illegally immigrate into the United States?” That is not what is going on here.

From the POV of the Mexican government, what they are trying to do is protect its citizens when they try to legally emigrate out of Mexico. Nothing in Mexican law says it is illegal to try to cross from Tijuana to California. And if its citizens are dying while engaged in what Mexico considers a legal activity, it is not only acceptable, but proper, for the Mexican government to try to protect them. The fact that the same conduct is illegal under American law is irrelevant to the Mexicans.

It is the right of every nation to ignore the laws of other nations, especially when the nation believes, as the Mexican government does, that the foreign law is unjust and absurd. The U.S. does this all the time - back in the day, it was illegal in Russia for Soviet citizens to defect. The U.S. didn’t say “gosh, under our law it’s legal to defect, but we must respect Soviet law. We’re going to have to send you back.” Similarly, we generally do not extradite people to foreign countries if the conduct of which they are accused is not criminal in the U.S.

Sua

[that_darn_cat]

*Originally posted by SuaSponte *
**
From the POV of the Mexican government, what they are trying to do is protect its citizens when they try to legally emigrate out of Mexico.
Sua **

Sorry Sua, but Mexico does regulate emigration, at least in theory:

Mexico’s migration laws regulate both immigration and emigration. Since the 1930s, these migration laws made it unlawful to depart Mexican territory without permission from Mexican authorities. During the bracero program (1942-1964), when both governments cooperated to reduce illegal migration from Mexico, this provision of Mexican law was interpreted by both governments to mean that that Mexicans who crossed the border illegally in between ports of entry were breaking Mexican law as well as US law. However, the Mexican government was extremely reluctant to enforce the “illegal emigration” provision of its migration law despite considerable US pressure, especially in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

So they are breaking the laws of their own country, and their government is encouraging them to. I don’t blame them for trying to leave, but they are breaking the law.

Until quality of life improves in the 3rd world, emigration to te US will always be attractive. We can build walls and let people die in the desert, or we can help. The choice is ours.

[that_darn_cat]

oh yes, and the link.

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/Archive_MN/mar_2001-02mn.html

[sailor]

I would say the US also regulates it as you are required to get a passport and you can be denied permission to leave if they have reason to believe you might owe taxes and other reasons. I do not believe anyone has an inherent unlimited right to leave the US. In any case, that is not the argument.

It may well be that it is against Mexican law to leave without proper process but this is like the idea of providing condoms to teenagers or needles to addicts. They shouldn’t do what they are doing but if they are going to do it anyway, at least let’s make it safer. I think that is the attitude of Mexico when giving them survival kits.

[malkavia]

Wait, wait… We are most certainly not an Isolationist country. We keep the worlds economy afloat and -constantly- stick our noses in affairs that dont concern us… dropping millions in military and aid to countries that dont offer awhole lot in return.

I would rather see Mexico spend its money teaching people NOT to trapse off into the desert where it’s gonna be 120 degrees and riddled with snakes all summer than to encourage them to risk their lives with the “safety net” of a survival kit. Do you have any idea how many people think they’ll be able to make it now that they have supplies?

Good grief.

But hey… its their money and they can spend it on whatever they want. I think it would be a bit daft for us to help fund something we spend millions of dollars on every year trying to PREVENT. Why do you think we -have- a border? If we wanted to help people get in safely, dont you think we’d make it a little easier on them? Right or wrong, its ludicrous to even -ask- us to help fund something we’re actively trying to prevent.

Its sad that close to 500 people lost their lives trying to escape from a less than priviledged country, but I would rather see those 500 people band together to try to fix their country, rather than die trying to escape it.

Sooner or later someone is going to have to look at the root of the problem in Mexico. I realize we’re all supposed to be uber-humanitarians here in the US… but seriously… are we just going to move the entire population of Mexico into our southwest? If thats the case, what are the chances of us just assimilating Mexico into the states, raping it of its resources (Are there any resources??) and charging them taxes out the ass like we do to all of our priviledged citizens.

I say its a bad idea. The money would be better spent on prevention and education.

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by that_darn_cat *
Sorry Sua, but Mexico does regulate emigration, at least in theory:

Don’t you just hate it when those silly facts get in the way of your theory? I withdraw my two cents, and adopt sailor’s position. Dammit.

Sua

[sailor]

>> adopt sailor’s position

OK, bend over now… It only hurts a bit the first time

Note also that the US does negotiate these things with other countries, including “non-existent” Cuba and, one would assume, Mexico. If you stop your people from leaving I’ll do this or that. Cuban inmmigration is very based upon a US-Cuban treaty whereby Cuba agrees to do everything it can to stop their people from leaving. Ironic. I suppose the US would use the same attitude with Mexico.