As a homemaker, I give this thread two eggs over easy, a good dusting, and make sure you call if you’re going to be home late.
I know, I know. I disagree with you a lot, so I must be a real idiot. :rolleyes:
No, it does not rely on such an assumption. I have no doubt that you and the other teachers do think that attendance demonstrates something besides an ability to brownnose the teacher. I read your arguments, and although I disagree with them, I do think that you are being sincere in thinking that participation does have a benefit. I just think you are being naive about what the benefit actually is.
IME as a student, the students only participate in class discussion if grades are on the line. They do it because they know they will be punished for not doing it. Even if they don’t have something meaningful to contribute, they are going to speak in class anyway if they know that they are being graded. Also many students will speak up simply because they know they are going to be called on if they don’t. This is intimidating to lots of people, and results in a good amount of wasted class time.
Students speaking in class tend to say what they think the teacher wants to hear. The other students get very little benefit from it. As a student, I’m paying my tuition money to listen to a professor that hopefully is smarter than I am, not an 18 to 23 year old kid who got stoned before class that morning.
Here are a couple more “Poster B” examples. I disagree with your position and that makes me guilty of not “actually taking into account the substance of our arguments” and “being a doody-head”. I don’t think it’s possible for you to act like this on the SDMB, and not in your dealings with students. Clearly you can’t help yourself. I’ve been pointing out the behaviour and you keep repeating it over and over. I really do feel sorry for your students.
I really don’t know where you are getting this attitude from. I offered an opinion and a bit of personal experience in a pit thread. This really is standard practice on the SDMB.
Yes, I did. I specifically stated that I had read the thread and just wanted to offer a quick $.02 and personal experience.
I do not agree that that is rude behaviour. It’s standard practice on the SDMB. I guess if a poster continually refuses to back up his opinions with arguments or reapeatedly limits his posts to drivebys then you would be right in calling it rude. However, I’m certainly not that type of poster. I get into lots of GD threads where I make detailed arguments and back them up with cites. It’s not like I’m rjung or something. 
Agreed. 
No, i’ve made it quite clear that i can disagree with people and not think they are an idiot. So far, you idiocy seems to be a completely independent quality.
Well, i disagree with a lot of this, and i think that some of it has merit. And even the stuff i disagree with is being argued in a reasonable manner, and based on your own apparent experience. If you had extracted your head from your ass long enough to make this post in the other thread, we might have had a productive discussion about it.
Good to know that it is possible for you do it, though.
No. In this thread i’ve just been insulting you because i can, and because i enjoy it. You have proven to be a complete dick, so now i’m just having fun. Hey, it’s my pitting, after all.
This can’t be the case in every class. It wasn’t in the classes I took nor in those that I’ve taught. The students speak up when we’re brainstorming topics as a class, when they have questions, and when they think they might know the answer to a question or even if they just want to take a stab at it (no harm, no foul if they’re wrong). When we get a lively discussion going over a story, film, topic, etc., they feel free to argue a bit, share information, point out different perspectives, and so on. The more discussion there is, the more notes they take so they can have more to write about later. Surely there is some benefit here.
Give me a Y! Give me an A! Give me an M! Give me…
Oh, forget it. Your name’s too long.
Whose skin is thin here? This thread was half in fun/half exasperation–an emotion that all teachers are familiar with.
OK-fair enough re: the only did it once comment–but I could swear I have seen grades given out on more than one occasion(but maybe not by you)…it’s not that important, it was just an observation.
I do take issue with your deliberate(?) missing of the OP’s point. Even I see it, and I have not read the thread in question–I have read this one and I can see the point he is trying to illustrate. You keep saying that he is misunderstanding the point–all the while it is you who is not addressing his complaint. Talk about obfuscation!
You say that class participation is motivated by certain requirements posited by teachers. A student says differently. How is he wrong and you right?
Both of you are partially right–he cannot know the motives/goals of the teaching staff(unless outlined in the syllabus) and you cannot know the motives of the student body(not many will cop to "I’m speaking up for the grade). I knew students who would sell their own characters/mothers in order to spout what they thought the prof wanted to hear–and many times, that type of brown-nosing got them a better grade. (gasp!)
It’s nice to claim high moral stances and all, but not every prof wants stimulating, challenging debate in class–even in humanities classes. If you think that the “cogent” argument rule will be valued no matter the “side” your on espoused by you runs true for every liberal arts course–I have some nursing profs for you to meet. Independent, critical thinking about nursing was NOT encouraged–aka don’t question your prof’s authority on this topic…I’m sure that holds true for other humanities classes.
It doesn’t for yours? Great. We need more TA’s/profs like you–but I don’t think you can dismiss another’s experience as “doody head-ism” just because it differs from yours.
As an easily distracted individual, I give this thread a … oooh, shiny!
You want someone to give you a yam?
The difference here is that i never once made a claim to know—or even implied that i know—what the motivations of the students are. You say that i “cannot know the motives of the student body.” You are correct, but i never once said that i did. Believe me, as a historian i’m painfully aware of the difficulties of assinging motivation to historical actors.
You also suggest that some students say exactly what they want the professor to hear, and that brownnosing works with some professors. I’m sure you’re correct. But i don’t see how that changes my point at all, because i never made any claim to the contrary.
I’m perfectly willing to concede that some students only speak up because they think it will help their grade. I also concede that there are probably teachers out there who like nothing better than to have their asses kissed by sycophantic students.
But the people making accusations that compulsory attendance is just a professorial ego-trip tended to paint with a pretty broad brush and, in many cases, refused even to acknowledge that there are broadly-accepted pedagogical justifications for the practice. If large numbers of humanities faculties across the country—hell, across the world—insist that attendance is a necessary part of the learning and evaluation process in certain disciplines, why assume that this arises out of nothing but self-importance and a desire to have their asses kissed? I know some people love to assume the worst about all college teachers, but this seems a little unreasonable.
Furthermore, even if someone like Debaser did indeed have college professors who were egomaniacs that wanted their asses kissed, this does not, in itself, negate the broader educational justifications for requiring attendance.
Finally, you and Debaser actually help me make my point. You both suggest that some students speak up not because they want to, but only because they are being graded. Well, yes. And that’s why attendance and participation are mandatory in some classes.
Educators, particularly those in the humanities, assume that among the skills we are meant to develop in students is an ability to communicate their ideas, and not just in written form. If making participation and attendance compulsory is the only way to push some students to develop those skills, then it seems to me that it serves an extremely useful purpose.
It’s hard to know how teachers are supposed to win in arguments like this. If we say that students should just sit there and listen to what we tell them, we’re accused of being egomaniacs who are unwilling to listen to alternative points of view, and who are more than likely trying to brainwash the students in the liberal worldview. If we insist that students contribute to class discussion and offer their own ideas and insights as a way of learning and of demonstrating their level of understanding, then we’re accused of being dictators who aren’t giving good value for the educational dollar. Maybe we should scrap the whole brick-and-mortar college system and just put every course online. Get teachers out of the equation altogether.
Since when is nursing a part of the liberal arts?
As a solipsist, I give myself an A+ for thinking up all the previous witty responses myself.
This should not surprise you; there’s been quite a bit of this going around on the SDMB for as long as I’ve been here, and I’m willing to bet a lot longer. It cracks me up when people simply state, “You are an idiot,” as if that proclamation really wins the day.
My favorite is when all attempts to argue and respond to points and logic breakdown, and people start breaking out the, “You’re a fucking idiot, and you’re wrong.” Of course, that gamebreaking argument did get me a gold medal at the state high school forensics tournament one time, but I’m told that it generally is not deemed a worthy riposte.
(Some day I’ll go into another favorite, the “I obtained one logic tool in my undergrad years and I now trying to smugly and knowingly apply it to every argument like a man whose only tool is a hammer thinks everything is a nail” poster. See, e.g., “ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE!!! ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE!!!”)
As the bus guy, I will have the driver assign seats to separate the two of you. Threemae, you sit here in the front right seat where the driver can keep an eye on you. Mhendo, 5 rows back behind the driver. And behave at the stop where you get off, or this goes to the principal.
As a hermit, I’m going to collect some twigs.
As a Steeler fan (Steelerphan), I still think the refs are paid off.
As a poster, I’d have tattered corners and a rip from the masking tape.
As a solipsist myself, I give myself an A++ for thinking up you.
As a mother, I must warn you all to quit whining or I’ll give you something to whine about.
As a father, I’ll remind you kids to listen to your mother.
As someone’s child, you SUCK! You hate me! I’ll bet you’re not even my real parents! I wish I had never been born!
:::::sound of running feet and slamming doors:::::::
E.
As an existentialist, it’s up to me to grade myself.