Middle Class America

[Risha]

I’m not sure that I would consider one’s actual education or occupation to be a delimiter of class, but I do think that the attitude towards them plays into it.

My father was the child of a vice president in a middling sized corporation and a law firm office manager. He dropped out of high school and went off to be a hippie. His siblings graduated and went to college, and went into business. He spent most of my childhood stocking grocery shelves to make ends meet, and later worked in asbestos removal.

My mother was the child of a concert violinist who eventually lost that job because of his alcohol problem. She graduated high school, but then also went off to be a hippie. Despite being very poor, most of her siblings ended up with degrees and jobs in computer programming or nursing. Mom cleaned houses until her health couldn’t handle it anymore, then worked as a clerk for awhile.

Despite being quite poor, we lived what I consider to be a solidly middle class lifestyle. Part of that was the unthinking assumption that I would go to college so that I would get a good job, and the cost never entered into it. (Anyone can afford college with enough loans and grants, I’m living proof.)

My older brother decided to follow in my parents’ footsteps and drop out of high school to travel around the country. Twelve years or so later, he is working an apprentice plumber. But his SO is a graduate student, and I would say that they live a middle class lifestyle as well. If they eventually have a child, I have no doubt that they will be expected to go to college and get a good job.

My step-father, on the other hand, comes from what I would consider to be the working poor. His father worked in a shipyard, and Kevin worked there for awhile before ending up collecting money from vending machines. He graduated from high school but never even considered college. His brother is an engineer, but in their family he’s the oddity (a good one) for having a college degree. It was a bonus that he chose to do that, not an expectation.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@msmith537

:rolleyes: New Money always spell-checks.

Or people actually know, without needing to.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@Ringo

**Wesley[/bWhat if I made $220K last year and make $5600 this year? Am I demoted? Does it make difference if I consider this year’s downward trend indicative of the future, or see it as a temporary difficulty?

I’d say a sudden change in financial circumstances, either way, does not change your class automatically. If you’re a typical member of the upper middle class, chances are you have the network to which msmith refers to, you have the shared experiences of that class, and you have mutual recognition with other members of that class. You might be down on your luck for a time, but you’re still a member of your class.

For how long do you remain so? I don’t know. As with all things having to do with class in this country, the answer to that question is vague, much like Paul Fussell’s asking how long may you continue to bear a college sticker in your rear windshield after all connection with that college has ceased.

[igloorex]

To me, class is only indirectly related to money. I’d also spread the distinction to four main classes: Lower class, LMC (aka blue collar, working class), UMC (white collar, professional class), and UC (Rich).

I’d put some of the distinctios between class like this:
Work:
LC: no work / min wage jobs, in and out of work
LMC: Hourly work (even well paid - if you punch a clock, you’re working class)
UMC: salaried positions, some small biz ownership
UC: ownership class (makes significant % of income via stocks (incl dividends and stock options)

Housing:
LC: none, subsidized, welfare motels, etc.
LMC: renting after ~30 years old, own a trailer or down market duplex/townhouse
UMC: Own
UC: Own (maybe a landlord as well)

Education:
LC: no HS degree, GED, very low % aspite to or attend college
LMC: HS degree, associate’s degree, public universities
UMC: College almost a given of children, high % of 4 year and prof degrees
UC: Private prep boarding schools, private 4 yr colleges

These are just a few off the top of my head. They’re all related to money, but indirectly. A teacher w/ a literature degree from Brown with a nice trust fund is UC. A UAW worker with a HS diploma who makes $80K is LMC. At least to me – it’s all pretty subjective.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@igloorex

Housing

LMC: renting after ~30 years old
.

In Omaha yes. In NYC or LA not necessarily.

[kniz]

@EJsGirl

Actually, I do meet the criteria, but I still carry around the notion that it is at least partly about money.

Which proves my point since upper class types do everything possible to deny money is important. They will drive old Jaguars because they are known to break down often and are expensive to fix. That says “I don’t care about money” (right out of the book).

In any case, I don’t have to fool anybody.

In an effort to show I have some class, I will pass on that.

We make a ton of money

“Money, money, money” isn’t that the theme song from the Apprentice.

I was raised with good manners and we are extremely well-travelled.

Me, too and you’re probably a rung or two up the ladder (I’m not denying that).

I only meant that there is a difference between “California money” and “regular money!”

Again you are right.

That excludes Martha’s Vineyard, Manhattan and a few other places, of course!

Now why are we excluding those areas? Could it be that there is an upper class living there. How about Nob Hill in California?

@msmith537

That’s one of those Southern affectation and appears ridiculous to us upper-middle class/lower wealthy Northeastern types. Are they really in a relevant “upper class” or are they an anachronism - doomed to dilute their wealth through inheritance, estate and property taxes.

Go ahead and blame it on the dumb decadent Southerners. Those same folks with the same problems live in Philadelphia, Boston, Newport, could you possibly be in denial?

I wonder if the Donald Trumps or Bill Gates’ of the world care that they are “neuvo-riche”.

Probably not that much. But I promise you that The Donald knows the difference. Knowing that they exist and you don’t belong to their class doesn’t mean you’re living an inferior life. I’m not going to shoot myself because EJsGirl has a ton of “California money”, or you have a lot of “NY money”. I’m happy with a moderate sum of “Mississippi money” (which I assume is “regular money”).

A slight hijack, but if one of my pledges ever said that, my response would have been to affect whatever that Thurston Howell III accent is called and ask him to join the little regatta we are hosting in the party room shitter.

Even back then I had an inkling that to do something like that would be soooo…well “middle class”.

The douchebag factor

Again very “middle class”. Lower class would just say “Asshole” (“factor” is the key).

New Money always spell-checks.

That is because the upper class wouldn’t be caught dead on SDMB. They wouldn’t be on a computer. If they have a personal computer on the premises it is for the use of the staff. They might have gone to Yale, Harvard or Princeton but they either down-play their intelligence or really aren’t too bright (hard to determine, by design).

I’ve got to share this, which shows my lack of class (loss of control is a no-no). I am willing to bet that today, Caroline Kennedy is wearing white panties that are 100% natural fiber. My roommate from NYC, whose family “belonged”, told me that those women always wear white undies and that book tells the following. Caroline’s close friends in college reported that they were fairly sure that in four years she never wore a garment that contained synthetic fiber (that includes blends, of course).

[Wesley_Clark]

@igloorex

To me, class is only indirectly related to money. I’d also spread the distinction to four main classes: Lower class, LMC (aka blue collar, working class), UMC (white collar, professional class), and UC (Rich).

I’d put some of the distinctios between class like this:
Work:
LC: no work / min wage jobs, in and out of work
LMC: Hourly work (even well paid - if you punch a clock, you’re working class)
UMC: salaried positions, some small biz ownership
UC: ownership class (makes significant % of income via stocks (incl dividends and stock options)

Housing:
LC: none, subsidized, welfare motels, etc.
LMC: renting after ~30 years old, own a trailer or down market duplex/townhouse
UMC: Own
UC: Own (maybe a landlord as well)

Education:
LC: no HS degree, GED, very low % aspite to or attend college
LMC: HS degree, associate’s degree, public universities
UMC: College almost a given of children, high % of 4 year and prof degrees
UC: Private prep boarding schools, private 4 yr colleges

These are just a few off the top of my head. They’re all related to money, but indirectly. A teacher w/ a literature degree from Brown with a nice trust fund is UC. A UAW worker with a HS diploma who makes $80K is LMC. At least to me – it’s all pretty subjective.

This article

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

Which was written by the conservative Heritage foundation, says that many poor people own their own home.

“As the table shows, some 46 percent of poor households own their own home. The typical home owned by the poor is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths. It has a garage or carport and a porch or patio and is located on a half-acre lot. The house was constructed in 1967 and is in good repair. The median value of homes owned by poor households was $86,600 in 2001 or 70 percent of the median value of all homes owned in the United States.”

So a poor person in the midwest may be able to buy a home for 35k, but an upper middle class couple in manhattan or LA may not be able to do so.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@kniz

That is because the upper class wouldn’t be caught dead on SDMB. They wouldn’t be on a computer.

You seem to be channeling Paul Fussell, which is amusing, but let’s not forget that his book on the subject is over twenty years old. Unless you’re being tongue in cheek here, I can’t believe this would actually be the case. Just as the upper class ultimately gave in, however reluctantly, to the prospect of owning cars, so must they have done by now with regard to owning computers.

[msmith537]

@kniz

Even back then I had an inkling that to do something like that would be soooo…well “middle class”.

So is watching The Apprentice.

It would still be pretty funny.

@kniz

Go ahead and blame it on the dumb decadent Southerners. Those same folks with the same problems live in Philadelphia, Boston, Newport, could you possibly be in denial?

Well we are talking stereotypes anyway, aren’t we?

I was specifically thinking of those areas you mentioned. Many of those old homes are no longer owned by the original families. Some were acquired by the state when their “Old Money” residents failed to keep up with property taxes (It’s tough to maintain wealth for generations without working). Others were probably purchased by “nouveaus” (much to the dismay of the old families who live there).

@kniz

That is because the upper class wouldn’t be caught dead on SDMB. They wouldn’t be on a computer. If they have a personal computer on the premises it is for the use of the staff. They might have gone to Yale, Harvard or Princeton but they either down-play their intelligence or really aren’t too bright (hard to determine, by design).

I’m trying to figure out exactly who you are talking about when you mean “upper class” or “right families”. It sounds like you are describing some kind of Great Gatzby 1920s WASP stereotype of wealthy bluebloods sitting in their mansions, sipping tea and watching the servants polish the silver. I’m sure there are still people like that and maybe that does describes the top .001% of wealthy individuals. I don’t know. I suspect that what you are in fact describing is the classic WASP stereotype - generations living in the same upscale community, the big gated mansion, only taking certain jobs in certain fields - banking, running the family business, politics, perhaps military officers for the more adventurous (seems big in the South).

@kniz

My roommate from NYC, whose family “belonged”, told me that those women always wear white undies and that book tells the following.

Sure…like those Hilton girls.

[Ringo]

By the criteria igloorex posted, I’ve apparently traveled through all of the classes.

Minor quibble:

@msmith537

“Class” generally infers some sort of boundaries - real or psychological. For example, a college degree is a very real boundary that separates the lower and middle classes.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 27% of adults in the U.S. over age 25 have a bachelor’s or higher degree. Surely you don’t mean that the middle and upper classes are comprised of only that segment of the population?

[kniz]

@msmith537

So is watching The Apprentice.

I am not saying I am anything else but middle class. What I’m saying that you refuse to accept is that an upper class exists and that no matter how upper middle class you get, you will not pentetrate it. Your children may, but you won’t. And so you’ll feel better, my grandchildren may but my children wont’. Feel better?

Well we are talking stereotypes anyway, aren’t we?

No.

I was specifically thinking of those areas you mentioned. Many of those old homes are no longer owned by the original families. Some were acquired by the state when their “Old Money” residents failed to keep up with property taxes (It’s tough to maintain wealth for generations without working). Others were probably purchased by “nouveaus” (much to the dismay of the old families who live there).

I mentioned Charleston, but only as a personal matter. But what I’m saying is true all over the nation. Some places, like New England, the families are older, but it is true in Arizona, Hawaii and probably in Alaska. You can pretend that you are as near to the top as anyone can get, but you are wrong, face it. Live with it. Get over it. It doesn’t matter. They can live their lives and you can live your’s. I mean you’ve lived this long in denial, so just keep it up. If it makes you feel better, if I moved to NY, I’d be lower down the scale than you would be. Feel better?

I suspect that what you are in fact describing is the classic WASP stereotype - generations living in the same upscale community, the big gated mansion, only taking certain jobs in certain fields - banking, running the family business, politics, perhaps military officers for the more adventurous (seems big in the South).

Have you ever been to the south? This type this is bigger than you want to admit in NY. Go to the upper end of Long Island. To Park Avenue, to Newport, RI, to Boston (my god, this is one reason I didn’t vote for Kerry, although he is very close to new money). When was the last time you got invited to the Kennedy compound?

Sure…like those Hilton girls.

If you don’t have any class, it doesn’t matter where you came from. [sup]Do I need to explain to you why they have no class?[/sup]

[msmith537]

@Ringo

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 27% of adults in the U.S. over age 25 have a bachelor’s or higher degree. Surely you don’t mean that the middle and upper classes are comprised of only that segment of the population?

No, what I mean is that a college degree is just one of many things that separates classes.

@kniz

If you don’t have any class, it doesn’t matter where you came from.

Actually, I would say that it doesn’t matter how much class you have, what matters is where you come from.

As ridiculous as she is, there is no doubt that Paris Hilton is from the upper class. She has all the affectations of someone who grew up with money - affluent lifestyle, nothing to do but shop and party, no real pressure to have a “real” job, the freewheeling attitude of someone who will never have any real problems.

That is what separates me and other upper middle class types from the upper crust. We have to continue working to maintain our lifestyle. We did not have the luxury of knowing that no matter what decisions we made in life, a trust fund was there waiting for us.

I’m not claiming that there is no upper class. I am simply saying that it is not as static nor isolated as you describe. You use the Kennedy’s as an example of upper crust, but according to Cecil himself (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_159.html) , even they might be considered nouveau to some families. And they don’t even make the Forbes top 100 list. And I’m pretty sure if I became as rich as Sam Walton, I could BUY myself all the class I need.

Don’t get me wrong. I do know what you are talking about. There are people who I know personally who I would consider “upper class” (maybe lower or middle upper class). My aunts investment banker boyfriend who comes from family money. My cousins/aunt/uncle who live in Pittsburg for example. Or my GFs uncle who are part owners of a professional baseball team. Or a former coworker of mine whos family owns a major company. They all have similar characteristics that I tend to associate with their class:

• expensive but tasteful interests - wine, motorcycles, etc
• nice homes in expensive neighborhoods with staff (that are also furnished as if people actually live in them…a lot of people are “house poor”)
• that sort of timeless Preppy Handbook style that always seems to be in style
• never actually talk about money
• living style that hints at having money - expensive hobbies, younger family members working jobs that could never possibly pay for their lifestyle/ housing
• higher education
• family businesses
• extensive travel

but there are still several layers of “wealthy” above them. People who own Bentleys and private jets. My friends sister is married to such a man and it is a ridiculously oppulent lifestyle that I can barely conceive of.

There is an old saying - show me a man with $500 MM dollars and I will show you a frustrated billionare. Basically, AFAIK, you are “rich” when you are unable to spend your money as fast as it makes itself. Everything else is just workin for the man.

[kniz]

@msmith537

That is what separates me and other upper middle class types from the upper crust. We have to continue working to maintain our lifestyle. We did not have the luxury of knowing that no matter what decisions we made in life, a trust fund was there waiting for us.

Now we’re on the same page.

One last little tidbit and I’ll leave this alone.

In the 1960s, “Bunky” Hunt and a partner tried to corner the silver market. This was illegal and he was called in front of a Senate hearing. A senator asked “Mr. Hunt, just how much are you worth?”. “Bunky” replied “Anyone that knows how much they are worth, isn’t worth very much.” On the other hand, his father, H.L. Hunt who made the fortune, would take his lunch to work in a paper sack.

[Barbarian]

@msmith537

:rolleyes: New Money always spell-checks.

Mais non, nous connaissons francais.