Might the US break up before this is over?

[penultima_thule]

And as the the OP "might the US break up before this is over?

No.

Even if Covid-19 could create tensions of that order of magnitude between have states and not have states it couldn’t be done within the life cycle of this pandemic.

Then the economic recovery from this probably will be taking over a decade, maybe more and there ain’t no way that the recovery would be achieved any faster through another burst of successionitis.

[Aeschines]

I’m inclined to think that the pandemic is bringing us closer together by showing that right and left are on the same side with respect to this thing, and the collective actions we are taking aren’t very much influenced by politics.

IOW, we bicker over petty shit all the time, but now we are more or less in agreement about the big picture.

[penultima_thule]

@Mike_Mabes

I did not say that life in NJ and NY are different, I said that life in NY and Va are different.

Virginia. My apologies. That’s much different. That’s the one John Denver sang about, right?
Conversely …

@Aeschines

IOW, we bicker over petty shit all the time

Sound like somebody who knows their onions.

[Mike_Mabes]

@Aeschines

I’m inclined to think that the pandemic is bringing us closer together by showing that right and left are on the same side with respect to this thing, and the collective actions we are taking aren’t very much influenced by politics.

IOW, we bicker over petty shit all the time, but now we are more or less in agreement about the big picture.

That is my hope. I am a liberal, and I hope that these goverment checks everyone will be getting, socialist checks, will help to take the stigma from that term.

I don’t agree that we are all in agreement about the big picture. On this issue, yes we are.

[Mike_Mabes]

@penultima_thule

Virginia. My apologies. That’s much different. That’s the one John Denver sang about, right?

.

Well, no. That would be Colorado. Rocky Mountain High. I’m guessing you don’t live in the US? Or are you joshing me?

[Siam_Sam]

There is not a chance of the US breaking up.

[galen_ubal]

@Mike_Mabes

Well, no. That would be Colorado. Rocky Mountain High. I’m guessing you don’t live in the US? Or are you joshing me?

He’s from Sydney, Australia (waves NE). It’s in his profile, and if you use Sultantheme, his location (whatever he set) shows up in his posts as well. And he may be thinking of Country Roads, which is West Virginia. Pretty close.

And I agree with Siam Sam - there’s no chance of the US breaking up.

[Mike_Mabes]

@galen_ubal

He’s from Sydney, Australia (waves NE). It’s in his profile, and if you use Sultantheme, his location (whatever he set) shows up in his posts as well. And he may be thinking of Country Roads, which is West Virginia. Pretty close.

And I agree with Siam Sam - there’s no chance of the US breaking up.

OK. I would disagree with "No"chance, but I don’t think it is going to happen. But someday it will. If not over this, then what?

But I guess that is another thread.

[Mike_Mabes]

@galen_ubal

He’s from Sydney, Australia (waves NE). It’s in his profile, and if you use Sultantheme, his location (whatever he set) shows up in his posts as well. And he may be thinking of Country Roads, which is West Virginia. Pretty close.

And I agree with Siam Sam - there’s no chance of the US breaking up.

Australia! I have a friend in Australia. I love Australia. And I love “Country Roads” . Except it is about West Virginia, and not Virginia, but they are really the same state. Had forgotten about the song until now.

"Take me home, country roads, back to the place, I belong. "

I’m going to play it now.

[Mike_Mabes]

Fuck. I am missing my mother and father. In Virginia, in their 70s, staying at home like we all are. The odds of them getting it are low.

[galen_ubal]

@Mike_Mabes

Fuck. I am missing my mother and father. In Virginia, in their 70s, staying at home like we all are. The odds of them getting it are low.

Dude, sounds like it’s time to unplug - maybe do so for a day or two. The world’ll still be here when you plug back in.
Oh, and call your folks tomorrow.

[Mike_Mabes]

@galen_ubal

Dude, sounds like it’s time to unplug - maybe do so for a day or two. The world’ll still be here when you plug back in.
Oh, and call your folks tomorrow.

Yep. Called them earlier, they are fine. I’m out and hope to sleep for 10 hours

[Aeschines]

[quote=“Mike_Mabes, post:24, topic:850558”]

That is my hope. I am a liberal, and I hope that these goverment checks everyone will be getting, socialist checks, will help to take the stigma from that term.

[quote]
Indeed!

I don’t agree that we are all in agreement about the big picture. On this issue, yes we are.

Right, I meant this issue. But it is a big one, and my hope that people will now understand the power of collective action as opposed to lots and lots of fighting over stuff that isn’t this big.

[crowmanyclouds]

@Aeschines

I’m inclined to think that the pandemic is bringing us closer together by showing that right and left are on the same side with respect to this thing, {…}

Funny, in this universe, it’s nothing like that.

CMC fnord!

[Ulfreida]

Virginia and West Virginia are not the same state. They divided over the issue of slavery, which as far as I can tell is more or less what we are still divided about: is this country for everyone or just for white people?

I do not think the US is going to break up any time soon. By the way there isn’t anywhere in the US that is much like New York City, so comparing it to anything else is going to lead you astray in your reasoning. Also the USSR was a conglomeration of actual countries with many centuries of self-identity, held together only by military force or the threat thereof. Not a bunch of states which formed with more or less similar goals, spreading westward from an original nucleus in about a hundred years. Not a similar situation at all.

One of the (many) problems in the US is the denial of class division, as a matter of cultural belief. It’s a lie that class doesn’t divide us, and besides race it is the biggest chasm, not urban/rural.

[Carryon]

When you look at the Soviet Union, there were decades of things that led to the break up, but when it happened, it happened very quickly.

The Soviet Union was in theory a collection of potential independent states. The Soviet Constitution permitted the secession of their constituent republics.

This is WHY it happend so quickly

There is no such provision in the US Constitution.

[asahi]

@Mike_Mabes

In the past it was the red states that wanted to succeed. Texas mostly, but it was bullshit posturing, but now I think it would be the blue states that would want to.

But if it happens, you say you would want to leave the country. Where do you live? If in a blue state, would you not want to be part of a new, blue, country? If in a red state, I would understand.

If blue states secede, territories within those states would secede from those states. Take Western Oregon and Western Washington as example: there’s no way in hell they’d ever agree to be part of a “blue” republic. Secession - should it come to that - might actually end up happening more at the city and metropolitan levels.

If a secessionist movement begins to take shape for real, it would lead to chaos and divisions at all levels within the government. Short of an actual secession, we’d have serious unrest and insurrection, and of course the brutal suppression of it as a response.

[Dr.Drake]

@Mike_Mabes

ETA. I have had the feeling for a long time that I should get out of this country before it is too late. Even before all this, I thought we were in the decline and fall.

I left 10 years ago, and while not everything is better in Canada, I have zero regrets. And the US has not improved in that time.

For a while now I have been advising American friends to get out. And the response is almost universally either “how dare you suggest such a thing” or “that’s impossible.” I don’t know what it is about Americans, but the serious thought of emigration seems to be tantamount to treason in a lot of people’s minds.

Right now, I can tell you, I am thrilled to be in a country whose government is science-friendly and has clear lines of communication, and I’m very, very worried about American friends and relatives.

But as for the subject of this thread, as Wesley Clark said, a country can’t break up along rural / urban lines, and state borders would be tough to enfore with state militias. If things break up over this, it’s going to be a long, slow process of federal neglect and local government stepping up. I think fifth-century Roman Britain is the model: technically, Roman government merely pulled back. The process took generations, and it took an invasion and the creation of England to really drive home that it wasn’t part of Rome anymore.

Nobody is going to invade the US. Canada doesn’t have the population (or want to), and Mexico doesn’t have the wherewithal either (or want to). So we either see a military takeover, or just a gradual shift of authority to the states. But I don’t see a formal breakup happening in my lifetime.

[RickJay]

@Mike_Mabes

But I think it is that entrenced. As much as it was before the Civil War. We are only the country that we are because the North went to war with the South to preserve the Union.

The War of Northern Agression.

No one called it that at the time. The term “War of northern aggression” was invented by racists in the 1950s to defend segregation.

[monstro]

@Mike_Mabes

Same thing in Virginia. Northern Virgina, blue. The rest of the state, red. Really, northern Virginia should be part of Maryland and the rest of Virginia should be combined with West Virginia.

I think the Richmond metro area and Hampton Roads would have a major problem with your proposal.