Military Courtmarshall

Factual Questions
1

I had a friend in my younger years (actually, he was my friends dad, but I liked him better than my friend) who told me a story.

Tom, as we’ll call him, had a number of outrageous stories that I believed were true. But one he told me I never believed.

Tom said when he worked for the military (he has a marksmanship award signed by the president which I’ve seen, but I don’t expect you to believe on my word) that he worked on a private base for awhile. A very secret military base, whom, if arrivals were not radioed ahead, their instructions were to shoot to kill without any questions.

Tom claimed that while he was off shift one day, one of his fellow guards (whom had had no radio contact that day) spotted a figure in the distance. The guard recognized the figure as a superior officer, and therefore held his fire. The officer was grateful, but could not stop the guard from being courmarshalled for the failure of his duty: his duty to kill on sight no matter whom he thought he saw, because the officer was not radioed ahead.

I know where I stand on my belief if the story is true or false. But what I want to know is, under those pretenses, could someone be courtmarshalled?

If someone recognized a reputable person, even though they had not been announced to arrive, could they go to prison for not shooting them on sight?

Thank you for your time,
The MeatBeast

2

Sounds like UL. And the term is “court martial” which means “military court”.

3

Sounds like an episode of Gomer Pyle, USMC that I saw back in the day.

Also sounds like what we in the Navy used to call a “sea story.”

Old Navy joke, no extra charge:

What’s the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story? A fairy tale begins: “Once Upon A Time”; a sea story begins: “This is a no-shitter.”

One more thing: it’s “court-martial”, not “courtmarshall”. It means “military court.”

4

I cry bullshit on the whole story.

First, while there may be places where the military might have a shoot-to-kill order, (and I find this unlikely), they are going to be inside tightly controlled areas, not out where it needs a a great marksman* to take down the target, otherwise, they would have a constant problem with killing stranded motorists and wandering hikers.

Second, but more importantly, the military justice system is not nearly as inflexible as he makes it out to be. On the one hand. it is governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice that provides a lot of safeguards for the indicted personnel, just as there are Constitutional safeguards for any citizen in the U.S. (provided you don’t get relabeled an Unlawful Combatant and hidden away from your lawyer). Beyond that, the Judge Adjutant General office of each of the services is run by people with more sense than a cartoon. They are quite capable of evaluating an offense and deciding whether to prosecute. In fact, there are several levels of discipline below a court martial and it is the privelege of an accused in the military to demand a trial before a court martial to clear their name if they feel that the lower functions may be biased against them.

  • Marksman (at least when my Dad was in the service), 'twaren’t no big deal. If you beat proficiency by a bit, you were awarded a Marksman badge. If you beat Marksman, you got a Sharpshooter badge. If you were really good, you were given an Expert badge.
5

Tom, JAG stands for Judge Advocate General.

6

I forgot to add:

Military personnel are also guaranteed their Constitutional rights. The “kill on sight” order is obviously bogus as is the friend’s story about serving on a “private base.” Now, if he’s talkign about some lunatic fringe militia group, then that’s a different story.

7

I cry bullshit too. And here’s a free no-shitter about how one of the most secure sites in the country treated me.

About ten years ago I had this Toyota Supra which was pretty fun to drive given the proper roads. I found one which was inexplicably almost entirely deserted, with a twelve-foot razorwire fence running along one side for a lot of it.

After a couple of weekends I had a “circuit” mapped out which included this mountaintop road, and I was timing myself on it. I’d easily reach speeds of over 100 mph. I thought it was great.

Late one Saturday night/Sunday morning, I pulled off of Route 7 and on to the road in question, about to start my lap. Parked on the side with his lights out was a state trooper. The cop flashed his lights at me and waved me on over, so I parked next to him and walked over to his window. I was pretty nervous, because back in those days I was a fool and I was in fact quite drunk.

“You must be the guy who thinks he’s Mario Andretti,” he said.

I prevaricated.

He stopped me and said he wasn’t going to give me a ticket, wasn’t going to search me, and wasn’t going to give me a breathalyzer. Then he asked if I knew who lived up there on the mountain.

I said I didn’t.

“Good, because if you did, I’d have to kill you.” And then he laughed out loud as I gaped at him. Then he told me I ought to go home to Sterling (he obviously already knew who I was and where I lived), which I did with the trooper leading the entire way through Loudoun County.

Naturally this piqued my curiosity, and though I never went back, I spent some time in the library figuring out what that place is. It’s Mount Weather, and the answer to the cop’s question about who lives there is “the President, his Cabinet, and the Supreme Court, in times of emergency.”

Now I ask you this: if the feds are willing to let the cops escort a drunk driver home instead of sending him up the river for driving recklessly on a military base (I assume that section of road is part of the base), why on earth would they want to shoot someone on sight somewhere else?

8

Shoot on sight someone the shooter knows to be a U.S. Army officer because the officer didn’t radio ahead? Must have been the base where they faked the moon landings! :smiley:

9

I know that, but it was the end of a really long day.

10

One of the most effective security measures you can have is MK1 eyeball recognition of staff.

All personnel on guard at any military installation are expected to recognise at least the CO and SCO on sight, and will generally recognise most of the Exec plus other senior staff and colleagues.

In fact it is normal practice at entrances to have pictures of Senior staff posted inside the guard hut.

If you recognised any other person and then subsequently shot them for nothing more than their walking about and without challenging them, you would be on some sort of charge.

11

I’m singing the song of “bullshit” too, however, the Air Force Security Forces at the existing missile alert facilities are trained to consider anyone or anything turning onto the driveway and heading toward the fenceline of a MAF as extremely suspicious.

“Shoot to kill”? No. But highly suspect nonetheless.

Not that I’ve ever screwed up and ‘licked pavement/grass’ for an hour or so. . . :rolleyes:

Tripler
My first tipoff was a “marksmanship award” signed by the President. The President of the gun club, maybe. . .

12

Geeze, if you aren’t supposed to shoot someone just because you recognize them, how are we going to win our war against the Changelings?

13

Years ago, my friend spent some time at the “Blue Cube” in Sunnyvale California (I have read that it’s the USAF’s satellite control center) so one day he’s being escorted to a conference room within the building and notes the plethora of signs simply stating “Use of Deadly Force is Authorized”. His escort leaves him alone (which apparently is a no-no). This unnerves my friend to the point he shuts the door (which is electronically latched and key padded) to the conference room so that at least they’ll have to open the door to shoot him. He said the escort just laughed when he came back, but my friend felt that this was a pretty stupid way of getting somebody shot; did the USAF mean it or not?
So deadly force is authorized within the military, but only under certain circumstances. And even then, my guess is that unless the threat is immediate and dangerous, they’d rather arrest or intimidate you to get the hell out of there. I don’t think they need the publicity (imagine someone is shot; don’t you think idiots would come around to see if they could try to martyr themselves. Arresting them is a far more effective way of dealing with the problem.

Incidentally, also knew someone who used to work at the White House who was familiar with Mt. Weather, but wouldn’t directly talk about it. I, too, drove by the place by accident in 1989, wondering what the hell this place was. It looked federal installation, but nothing indicated to me what the purpose was for. I found out about the alleged place only after I read William Poundstones book “Big Secrets” (or Bigger or Biggest, can’t remember). The only thing he told me was that the story was untrue that a drunk driver who struck a power pole knocked power out to the facility. That, and a 727 that crashed near the area back in the 60’s or 70’s.

14

user_hostile you are right. You just can’t ‘John Wayne’ it and shoot anyone on sight. There’s a theoretical ramp up to which lethal force is justified (which kinda bucks the OPs “shoot to kill” story into the water).

Go to Air Force Publishing and do a search for “31-207”. That will give you the manual on the Air Force policy to shoot to kill (only in extreme necessity).

To put it bluntly, IMHO, you can put a hand on a holstered weapon to indicate that you’re ready to counter a nasty threat. You can draw and point a weapon to deter and counter a direct threat. You can ‘shoot to kill’ to eliminate an immediate threat.

Tripler
“Shooting to kill” on approach to a fenceline doesn’t fly. Sorry.

15

Thank you all very much, and with that in mind, please remind me not to OP when I’m a little tipsy anymore.

I don’t think I made it clear enough at all that I thought that the original story of my friend was complete BS. But I am really curious (especially from military peronell or ex ones) if you could be court martialed under those circumstances. (notice I’ve fixed my spelling from the OP. The MeatBeast rules like that, Yo!)

But thank you guys for all of the responses. I was just looking for more of an answer to the “would they court martial someone for that” question than I was the bullshit factor, but I still appreciate all of your input, everyone. I’ll get better at our OP’s soon, I promise.

Blushing in shame for crummy OP,
Mr. MeatBeast