Military Dopers: Do soldiers/marines/airmen like Obama's military policy?

[Bear_Nenno]

@theR

I just have a hard time believing that the consequences unique to the military change the behavior any more than all the consequences I mentioned that are not unique to the military.

Allow me to clarify. I never said that the military is less likely to commit adultery. It’s not my opinion that soldiers are on some higher moral ground than the rest of the country or that they actually hold their leaders to a higher standard.

My statement was that it is clear to see how a group of people who know the risks involved in a certain offense, who have known people punished hard for a certain offense, and/or have been punished themselves for the offense… it is not hard to see how these people will feel resentment toward a leader who can apparantly commit the same offense with impunity.

Personally, I only took issue with the fact that it made him more susceptible to blackmail (before the whole nation found out).

All from a complaint? Nothing has to be proven? Or the guilty person will usually confess?

Usually the person takes the easy way out and agrees to receive his non-judicial punishment. Thus, there is no investigation into the incident and no prosecution. But prosecution =/= punishment. Regardless, I think you thought I was trying to make a different point than I was. I don’t believe that soldiers commit less adultery than the rest of the country. I just believe they are punished more regularly and they might resent a leader who can do it and not be punished for it.

[BobLibDem]

@Mr.Moto

You probably remember this, right? Look how the troops are smiling - you can see how much personal respect they have toward a man they regard as a political joke.

Anyone with multiple brain cells knew that Kerry was referring to Bush in his ill-received joke. Funny how they crucified Kerry for his joke but gave Chimpy a pass for starting a war that never had to be fought.

[Mr.Moto]

@BobLibDem

Anyone with multiple brain cells knew that Kerry was referring to Bush in his ill-received joke. Funny how they crucified Kerry for his joke but gave Chimpy a pass for starting a war that never had to be fought.

So are you saying these troops don’t have multiple brain cells? You might be falling into the same trap yourself.

Those troops heard what the rest of us heard - they were used to make a cheap political shot. And if they felt ill-used by it, or wanted to turn the joke around - well, I’m not one to criticize.

As for the troops giving Bush a pass - well, perhaps the Republicans used up a good bit of the goodwill they built up among the military over those many years. I won’t dispute that. But that doesn’t mean the Democrats did much to beef up their pro-military credentials in this time. They would seek political cover by advocating for veterans programs or body armor or other seemingly noncontroversial issues and make hay over certain troop care shortfalls.

Never mind that Walter Reed and the barracks issue had their origin in the chronic underfunding of the military since about 1992 - and both parties contributed to that mess.

The Democrats have an opening here - but they will squander it if they prove that they don’t actually care about the military. Considering that I believe that this is the actual policy of the American people - Democrat and Republican - this will be an easy thing for them to flub up.

[Mosier]

@Mr.Moto

The Democrats have an opening here - but they will squander it if they prove that they don’t actually care about the military. Considering that I believe that this is the actual policy of the American people - Democrat and Republican - this will be an easy thing for them to flub up.

How can you justify making such an observation, knowing that America spends a higher percentage of its GDP on the military than almost any other nation, and the USA spends more than 50% entire world military budget?

[BobLibDem]

@Mr.Moto

So are you saying these troops don’t have multiple brain cells? You might be falling into the same trap yourself.

Those troops heard what the rest of us heard - they were used to make a cheap political shot. And if they felt ill-used by it, or wanted to turn the joke around - well, I’m not one to criticize.

The troops were not used at all by Kerry because they were not the brunt of Kerry’s joke. That they thought that they were either indicates they are indeed stupid after all or they got brainwashed by the likes of Spongerush Fatpants.

[Bear_Nenno]

@Mosier

How can you justify making such an observation, knowing that America spends a higher percentage of its GDP on the military than almost any other nation, and the USA spends more than 50% entire world military budget?

What percentage of that is actually spent on soldiers or their quality of life vs the amount spent on weapons and equipment?
I’m inclined to think Mr. Moto meant “care about the soldiers” when he said “care about the military”. If the majority of the defense budget is spent on billion dollar aircraft and missles, while things like hospitals and quality of life are ignored, one can safely assume that the soldiers are not a priority.

[Mr.Moto]

@BobLibDem

The troops were not used at all by Kerry because they were not the brunt of Kerry’s joke. That they thought that they were either indicates they are indeed stupid after all or they got brainwashed by the likes of Spongerush Fatpants.

There you go. It’s a good thing you don’t do PR for your party - you’d suck at it.

[Mr.Moto]

@Bear_Nenno

What percentage of that is actually spent on soldiers or their quality of life vs the amount spent on weapons and equipment?
I’m inclined to think Mr. Moto meant “care about the soldiers” when he said “care about the military”. If the majority of the defense budget is spent on billion dollar aircraft and missles, while things like hospitals and quality of life are ignored, one can safely assume that the soldiers are not a priority.

It’s kind of both, actually. A soldier can have a great quality of life until his Humvee gets hit by an IED - it might suck after that. And while the Humvee armor issue hasn’t been nearly as easy to solve as Democrats made it seem a couple of years back, I don’t think anyone will argue that they should have been better armored from the outset, given the roles they were to have played on the battlefield.

Likewise the issue with military aviation - we used to be far ahead of everyone technologically and tactically. All indications are that that gap is closing and we will likely have to accept greater casualties among our Navy and Air Force aviators. The fact that we don’t buy enough of any strike or fighter plane that is developed makes a difference here.

We do spend more, but we also have more responsibilities. I don’t support paring down funding unless our obligations are shared out better. The problem with that is that other governments, even our allies, are risk-averse to a fault. They would do nothing about Rwanda even if they have longstanding ties and interests in the region (France), would obstruct our diplomacy to try to force the Hussein regime into a fuller declaration of its intentions (France, Russia), conspired with the Hussein regime to corrupt the Oil for Food program and strengthen Saddam’s hold on power (the U.N., various functionaries worldwide), and stood by and did nothing while Yugoslavia descended into anarchy and genocide (pretty much all of Europe).

So yeah, we have a big budget. It is also plain that lots of times we’ll be left to go it alone - no matter the diplomacy we put in or the justice of the cause. I fully anticipate this will drop in real terms in the coming decades - I wonder if the rest of the world would particularly welcome picking up some of the tab that this would require.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Kalhoun

Seriously? Seriously? Huh.

Yeah, seriously. Military folk want a leader that stands behind them and provides full support, publicly, excecutively, and in his personal conduct. This is the reason Kennedy, Reagan (and so some extent, G.H.W. Bush) were so very popular among the military, and why Nixon, Clinton, and Carter (despite being a former line Navy officer) were seriously unpopular at both the flag level and the rank-and-file.

Clinton in particular was widely regarded as a completely untrustworthy worm, not only because he skipped out on his draft and ROTC obligations and lied publicly and under oath in a way that was very obvious he was weaseling his way out of trouble any not even bothering to excuse his own conduct, but also for promoting an irregular and mercurial foreign military policy that put PBMFs at risk on the ground in Africa and Eastern Europe without a means to retaliate or even defend themselves, and not only acknowledging gays in the military which pissed off the right wing, but then turned around and screwed gays with “Don’t ask, don’t tell,” instead of an outright acceptance, which then pissed off the left side.

Anybody left who wasn’t already torqued off about the quote-executive leadership-unquote provided by the Clinton Administration was then probably angry about the widespread and brutal (if arguably overdue) base closings and force reductions. All in all, Clinton was probably one of the most unpopular and ineffective Presidents of the 20th Century from a military perspective. He’s pretty much the posterboy for the rear echelon motherf***er archetype.

W. Bush was a polarizing figure; I’ve heard officers and R&F speak highly of him as a leader, but I’ve also heard many express extreme doubts in his ability as a policymaker. In my opinon, another REMF, and even more damaging than his predecessor.

Obama seems (so far in speechifying) to have a sincere respect for the capabilities of the military and an interest in soliciting a range of qualified, rational opinions rather than imposing a narrow philosophical worldview. Of course, he’s also going to upset some established apple carts, especially (it appears) with weapon and technology development programs, which will earn him many critics. I don’t think anyone knows quite what to think of him yet, but he has the potential to either become another Kennedy or another Carter. Only time will tell.

Stranger

[spifflog]

@Revenant_Threshold

I find this interesting - adultery and/or lying is looked on more harshly within the military, i’d guess you mean? Why do you think this is so?

Partially because of what was said previously. That we are a tight knit bunch who rely on each other. Someone breaking that by lying and cheating on their spouse eats right at the heart of that type of trust. And I deploy for six months at a time. I need to believe that my wife will be faithful, and that my buddies won’t be hitting on her on night one for me to be able to concentrate on my job.

Also at that time, there were a bunch of (liberal) talking hears such as Geraldo, saying adultery was a victimless crime, that most people lie about cheating and no one is ever punished for it. But Clinton as commander in chief had over two million men and women who were subject to discipline for committing perjury, lying and adultery, who view this talk with distain and saw it as a serious double standard.

[sqweels]

@Mr.Moto

There you go. It’s a good thing you don’t do PR for your party - you’d suck at it.

Quite a dodge there. Now are you going to admit that Kerry was referring to Bush and not the troops, or what?

[sqweels]

@spifflog

But Clinton as commander in chief had over two million men and women who were subject to discipline for committing perjury, lying and adultery, who view this talk with distain and saw it as a serious double standard.

But how did they feel about a frivolous lawsuit designed to Bring Down Our Commander In Chief?

And does anyone remember the reaction in military and conservative circles when Clinton’s lawyers briefly considered arguing that he, as technically an active member of the military, was exempt from lawsuits?

[spifflog]

@sqweels

But how did they feel about a frivolous lawsuit designed to Bring Down Our Commander In Chief?

And does anyone remember the reaction in military and conservative circles when Clinton’s lawyers briefly considered arguing that he, as technically an active member of the military, was exempt from lawsuits?

Well, it’s frivolous depending on where you stand. Perjury and adultery are serious business in the military with serious consequences.

Most of us, and most of America I think, viewed Clinton as, well, pretty slick to begin with. His actions later only compounded that.

And while the “it depends on what your definition of is, is” talk might have flown with Congress and many Americans, for us in the military, that type of double speak will not fly AT ALL. To say it’s too cute by half is an understatement. It will get you your ass handed to you at Captain’s mast, and will get you utter contempt from your peers. So while perjury over adultery didn’t seem like a big deal to some, it was to us. And we knew if that happened to us, we’d pay a serious price.

None of this means that we think we are better than others. Only that accountability and consequences are closer to home for us than many in the civilian world.

[JRDelirious]

@spifflog

And while the “it depends on what your definition of is, is” talk might have flown with Congress and many Americans, for us in the military, that type of double speak will not fly AT ALL.

Oh, I’d suspect that you get yourself far enough up the chain and into the favored cirlcles, and it begins to at least make some respectable high-jumps

To say it’s too cute by half is an understatement. It will get you your ass handed to you at Captain’s mast, and will get you utter contempt from your peers.

There are many of us even who were on his side that wished he’d gone for a timely and brazen “Yeah, I got head from that chick; so what the Hell does that have to do with anything, aren’t you supposed to be investigating a financing deal?” At least we could have watched some heads catch fire. Bill’s basic need to be loved and absolved was an ill fit for a community where the most important thing is to be respected.

Back to OP, evidently Mr. O still has not had a chance to really either make a huge splash or get into any major friction with the military communities, though one would expect quite a few would be particularly sensitive to any perceivable slight (count on the rightwing blogosphere to find such slights). He so far hasn’t walked into his own line of fire on these issues, things are yet to be seen.

[Magiver]

@JRDelirious

Back to OP, evidently Mr. O still has not had a chance to really either make a huge splash or get into any major friction with the military communities, though one would expect quite a few would be particularly sensitive to any perceivable slight (count on the rightwing blogosphere to find such slights). He so far hasn’t walked into his own line of fire on these issues, things are yet to be seen.

If the American Legion is any indication he’s working on it. It looks like he’s trying to shift VA medical treatment to private sector insurance companies to save money.

[Kimstu]

@Magiver

It looks like he’s trying to shift VA medical treatment to private sector insurance companies to save money.

The damn socialist.

[Magiver]

@Kimstu

The damn socialist.

Make light of it if you want. I’ve already received emails from current and ex-military people and they are not happy.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Magiver

Make light of it if you want. I’ve already received emails from current and ex-military people and they are not happy.

As compared to the existing underfunded and widely craptastical VA system? Hmmm…

Stranger

[Magiver]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

As compared to the existing underfunded and widely craptastical VA system? Hmmm…

Stranger

Judging from the emails I’ve received from veterans I foresee a parade in honor of the President for the proposed insurance changes.

[spifflog]

Just so we are completely off topic, the military health care system is so vastly underfunded, that serious cash, or a serious increase in user fees (which I personally support), will be required soon. Going to be a hard nut to crack, knowing how strong the military retiree lobby is.