Military magazines and ammunition

[Alessan]

A friend of mine once have a Marine battalion stop by the Negev for some joint training with his unit. He said that they would leave the life fire training grounds littered with perfectly good empty magazines after exercises. It was great - spares for everyone!

[Bear_Nenno]

[quote=Laggard]
When you are issued your rifle, how many magazines are you given?]

It appears things have changed over time and may be different depending on which service we’re talking about. In the US Army, a basic combat load is 210 rounds, or 7 magazines. A Soldier is issued 7 magazines when he gets to his unit. The rifle stays in the arms room when not in use, but the magazines stay with the Soldier. The Soldier is responsible for maintaining his magazines and turning them in when he leaves the unit, but they are a dime-a-dozen and are generally pretty expendable. If one is lost or something, it isn’t too big of a deal. The Soldier just needs to buy, find, grab or steal another one from somewhere. They’re really just all over the place, so it isn’t that hard to get another one without resorting to buying a new one. I think I have an entire chest full of them in the garage. They just accumulate somehow.

@Ranger_Jeff

It didn’t exactly work that way in my time. You had to sign for your rifle and if you lost it, you had some explaining to do before you got another one. You didn’t have to sign for magazines, you just took as many as you wanted or needed. Our standard combat load was 10 magazines, but if you came back from a mission with less than 10 mags, no one cared.

In a combat area, the unit still makes an effort to make Soldiers sign for new magazines, but nobody really pays attention to it. It’s kind of hit or miss if a Soldier ends up keeping all the P-mags he acquired. Same with multi-tools and eyepro.

@DinoR

Up until just recently it still didn’t work that way. There’s a basic load of ammunition for operations - 180 rds or 6x30rd magazines. That’s the closest to an answer you’ll likely get.

What service is this?

Magazines weren’t on the Commander’s property book that were issued to a unit with all the accountability concerns though. IIRC correctly there were classified as “durable” in the supply system. They were “purchased” against a unit budget through that system, Outside of a deployment that meant that because of price they sort of hurt to lose since unit budgets were limited. In training you might get less than a full basic load in magazines (since you might not have that much ammunition for the exercise.) In combat budgets open up, losses are more expected, and you have access to more (and potentially carry more than the basic load based on mission.) For something like a peacekeeping operation where you were issued some live ammo, just in case, but not a full basic load you likely only got enough magazines to hold that load. How they were managed had a lot to do with the unit leadership.

Pretty much this. Except if you are only issued a small amount of ammunition for a guard duty or peacekeeping operation, you’re still expected to have 7 total magazines in your kit. They rest just sit there in the pouch empty.

[Alessan]

Why not issue a full load of ammo for peacekeeping or guard duty? What could it hurt?

[Bear_Nenno]

@Alessan

Why not issue a full load of ammo for peacekeeping or guard duty? What could it hurt?

I think it’s just a matter of logistics and laziness. More ammo issued means more ammo to sign for and to be accounted for, and more chance of people losing it or trying to keep it. Plus, turning in unfired ammo is more of a pain in the ass. The assumption is that the ammunition will never be used or needed anyway. The more ammunition that is issued out, the more that will be needed to turn back in. Once the seal is broken on a case of ammunition, you want to shoot it and turn in the brass. As long as the weight of the brass is correct, everything is fine. The process of turning in unfired ammunition involves repacking slips, and a more in-depth turn in process. Re-issuing loose ammunition is also more of a pain in the ass. When signing for loose ammunition, you’re going to want to count it and verify that you’re getting what you sign for. It’s easier to sign for sealed ammo crates and ammo cans because you can be sure of what is in there.
That’s just a though. Maybe there is some more official reason out there, but honestly, I think it just comes down to accountability issues and people not wanting to make extra work for themselves.

[Alessan]

Interesting. The Israeli army doesn’t have U.S. military budgets, obviously, but for some reason its policy is to be extremely free with small-arms ammo, at least as far as the average soldier is concerned. They’d just give us a bunch of boxes, tell us to take as much as we want, and never counted bullets when we turned in our weapons. We’d have a bucket full of loose round in our campsites just so people could top off and grab some spares. In fact, they actually encouraged us to fire as much ammo as possible in live-fire exercises - practice makes purpose, right? I guess that in the grand scheme of things, compared to other military expenses, ammo is pretty much small change.

[chacoguy]

@Bear_Nenno

I think it’s just a matter of logistics and laziness. More ammo issued means more ammo to sign for and to be accounted for, and more chance of people losing it or trying to keep it. Plus, turning in unfired ammo is more of a pain in the ass.

My squad was on the range once when world came down that the headquarters company didn’t wanf fo get their weapons dirty. Subsequently, we got all their stuff, thousands of rounds for M-16, M-60, .50 cal and a bunch of claymores. Best day of my life.

[Atomic_Alex]

@DinoR

Most typically the rounds arrive to the end user in it’s normal packaging. I had an instructor that was post command that attributed this to the “supply sergeant mafia.” When he commanded an Infantry Company he early on let his supply sergeant know that loaded magazines would come up to his riflemen. The ammo was of course still delivered to the supply sergeant in it’s bulk packaging. After much moaning, wailing, and gnashing of teeth my instructor won rock, paper, rank (“One, two, three, Captain’s Bars… I win”). For two years in that rifle company the standard was trading empty magazines for full ones when the LOGPAC (Logistics Package) came forward. That’s not necessarily the norm. In a literal sense the rounds were still delivered to the field outside of magazines. It was merely a matter of which troops filled them.

While it would certainly be convenient I’m not certain I would trust my life to somebody else loading my magazine correctly.

Perhaps I’m just being overly cautious/cynical!

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Alessan

Interesting. The Israeli army doesn’t have U.S. military budgets, obviously, but for some reason its policy is to be extremely free with small-arms ammo, at least as far as the average soldier is concerned. They’d just give us a bunch of boxes, tell us to take as much as we want, and never counted bullets when we turned in our weapons. We’d have a bucket full of loose round in our campsites just so people could top off and grab some spares. In fact, they actually encouraged us to fire as much ammo as possible in live-fire exercises - practice makes purpose, right? I guess that in the grand scheme of things, compared to other military expenses, ammo is pretty much small change.

Well, that and Israel has a much smaller pool of potential soldiers to recruit (or conscript), so it makes sense to spend a bit more on training each one.

ETA: that is not to say I view US soldiers as disposable, and I wish our government didn’t either.

[Alessan]

I dunno - I mean, it’s not like they don’t pinch pennies with other stuff. Just not ammo.

[smithsb]

Garrison in Afghanistan early on directed soldiers not on a mission to carry the magazines 2/3 full. 20 rounds for the M16/M4 weapons and 10 rounds in each 9mm sidearm. The Squad Automatic Weapon folks would carry the 100 round fabric magazine. For the rifles and sidearms, the reason given was walking around with the magazines fully loaded compressed the springs to the max and several weeks/months like that would reduce the “springiness”. The SAW gunners appreciated the lower weight and less clatter walking around. Also, dust/sand was more likely to jam a fully loaded magazine - more spring pressure would wedge the rounds tighter with sand grains binding up things. Lubrication was a no-no as it attracted the crud.

[Tripler]

@Bear_Nenno

They’re really just all over the place, so it isn’t that hard to get another one without resorting to buying a new one. I think I have an entire chest full of them in the garage. They just accumulate somehow.

I was pleasantly surprised to see them for sale at the PX at Ft Bragg. I think I’d seen them in other Army PXs too. Can’t say that for the NEXs I’d been in though. . .

@Bear_Nenno

I think it’s just a matter of logistics and laziness.
.
.
.

That’s just a though. Maybe there is some more official reason out there, but honestly, I think it just comes down to accountability issues and people not wanting to make extra work for themselves.

This. When I ran my companies in Afghanistan, it was always easier to just hand out the candy ('cause I know they’d pass them out . . . violently or in ‘a disposal shot’) than to have to count Skittles at the RIP/TOA.

Our explosives though, were accountable 'cause they wasn’t so readily available.

@smithsb

Garrison in Afghanistan early on directed soldiers not on a mission to carry the magazines 2/3 full. 20 rounds for the M16/M4 weapons and 10 rounds in each 9mm sidearm.

I’d heard that before, and as practice, we carried 28 or 29, but more because of a feed issue. However, our bolts were well worn enough that apparently it didn’t really matter.

Tripler
I know the difference between a BX and PX.

[DinoR]

[QUOTE=Disposable Hero]
While it would certainly be convenient I’m not certain I would trust my life to somebody else loading my magazine correctly.
[/quote]

It’s Soldiers in their own unit loading them. It’s one of the simpler tasks you rely on someone for. As long as all the pointy ends go the same way it’s either right or they can see it’s wrong. There’s a lot more critical things to trust. It was pre-911 so less two way implications. I’d suspect that rifle companies First Sergeant would have made sure the loading detail was re-trained extensively the first time they messed it up.

@Bear_Nenno

What service is this?

First the head slap from a guy who spent the majority of my career in battalions where rifles were in the minority. :smack: I was just thinking of 6 carried on top of the one that would be loaded when appropriate and multiplied by 30. Even when I had a rifle I usually only had one magazine to keep the dirt out in training. Of course I didn’t work for a living.

US Army mostly Guard but some Reserve time and a little over 6 years active duty time (although never Active Component).

Pretty much this. Except if you are only issued a small amount of ammunition for a guard duty or peacekeeping operation, you’re still expected to have 7 total magazines in your kit. They rest just sit there in the pouch empty.

That was a unit driven decision, even if it was driven at echelons way above your reality. During my deployment on a peacekeeping mission that was not the standard applied. We wore soft caps and no kit to leave the wire. The infantry units brought their extra mags. Everyone else got issued the minimum required for the mission load. Of course our senior leadership was pretty devoid of Infantry experience. That may have had something to do with the decision.

[Andy]

There was an interesting period in the British army, where although magazines themselves weren’t of any great interest, the filling of them most certainly was. I don’t know what the typical load was for infantry at the time, 7 x 30 round magazines I think (some under filling was common, but I don’t know if it was really required), but refilling of your own empties was essential, as the section (squad) level weapon was magazine fed. It’s still an absolute puzzle to me how this idiotic decision was reached. It was a derivative of the basic infantry SA-80, and while superbly accurate, the lack of a rapidly changeable barrel and the magazine feed left everyone underwhelmed to say the least.
Need intense suppressing fire? Better get your whole section filling magazines like there’s no tomorrow, plus if the barrel gets warm, give us a few minutes will you? Thanks chaps.

[Flyer]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Fully automatic weapons would be pretty surprising. Fully automatic battle rifles, at least. WWII troops would probably be closer.

Not entirely. The BAR was introduced during WWI.

M1918 Browning automatic rifle

[Chefguy]

@Ranger_Jeff

Back in my day, I tried to retain them but sometimes I had better things to do than to stuff an empty magazine into my ammo pouch. Like shooting my rifle.

Ammo came in cans. In the cans were 6 bandoleers. Each bandoleer had 7 pockets. In each pocket were 2 small boxes. In each box was a stripper clip with 10 rounds of 5.56 ammo. And each bandoleer had a loading tool in one of the pockets. You’d slide the loading tool onto the top/back of an empty magazine, slide the stripper clip into the tool, and push down on the rounds with your thumb. When all the rounds were loaded into the mag, you’d pull out the empty stripper clip, insert another and repeat. You could reload a magazine in less than 10 seconds. At that time, although 30 round mags were available, they weren’t reliable, so we mostly used 20 rounders. And loaded in magazines was a lousy way of long term storage of ammunition.

Our ammo pouches held 3 mags each. I wore 3 pouches. Plus one in the 16 and a spare in your helmet band or a bellows pocket, that’s 11 mags. That’s what my load-out was. Starting dry, I’d grab 3 bandoleers at ammo call and enough mags to bring me up to 11. That was enough for a full load for 11 mags and one 10 mag reload. I’d stuff the extra bandoleers in my rucksack.

Of course, that was then and things are probably different now.

My experience as well. When going to the range, we filed past a big box o’ mags and grabbed whatever the allotment was for the day. There was nothing to prevent you from taking more, but there was no point in doing so.