I was watching a gee whiz progam on the stealth bomber on the HIstory channel last night. A B-2 pilot related returning from a bombing mission in Irag, flying over the East Coast of the USA and requesting to overfly the Statue of Liberty and the site of the World Trade Center, “Because we were doing something about the 911 Tragedy.”
I wonder how many members of the military believe there is a relation between Iraq and September 11, and why.
Of course, these guys are braver than hell to fly an unarmed bomber, visible to radar when the bomb bay is open, over Iraq and I have no desire to insult them in any way.
I at first did not believe that there was a link between 9/11’s al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein (a mujahadeen ‘grassroots’ terrorist organization versus an established government–as oppressive as it was), but the pitch was made that there was a clear danger to the region and the world: Slick Saddam had WMDs, and was researching and developing others with an intent to build more and export the technology.
I think we all took that point hook, line, and sinker.
While I have seen evidence he had WMDs in the form of definite chemical weapons, and crude biological weapons, I’ve seen that his nuclear capability was still in its infancy. Cite? I can’t. It was all back-of-the-napkin stuff from our Intel weenies.
However, given my (still) impression he intended to export, I think removing him was a good idea. I do seriously think we underestimated the civil and religious undertones that prevailed underneath the dictatorship. I feel we simply had no idea it would blow up like this: we don’t deal with that in the US, and I don’t think any industrialized, First World nation can grasp the idea of a civil war based solely on religion–the price you pay for modernism and education, I guess.
That being said, we overestimated ouselves, and should have left a bad thing in place until we had a definite plan to cure all ills.
But we’re in there now. And we’ve got to clean up a mess. I will go back if ordered.
Tripler
I don’t care who hates who. I’m an engineer. I can make things easier for all sides.
As far as I’ve seen, every single person who had ANY actual experience with the Iraqi WMD situation knew that everything the administration claimed in the lead-up to the war was 100% hooey.
Iraq’s nuclear program in its infancy? More like it was aborted before it made it anywhere near term. Iraq’s nuclear capability in 2003, and at any point after 1991 was zero.
As far as chem/bio stuff, they did not have anything more advanced, or any capability more advanced than any other country in the middle east. In most cases, their capability was WAAY under par as far as the ME is concerned.
The UNSCOM inspections cut the balls off the Iraqi WMD programs, and they never grew a new pair.
‘Robin Cook has resigned from Tony Blair’s cabinet as the build-up to war with Iraq gathers pace.
The decision by the House of Commons leader, one of the highest profile figures in the Labour Party, came as the Cabinet held an emergency meeting in Downing Street.’
‘Nor is it fair to accuse those of us who want longer for inspections of not having an alternative strategy. For four years as Foreign Secretary I was partly responsible for the western strategy of containment. Over the past decade that strategy destroyed more weapons than in the Gulf war, dismantled Iraq’s nuclear weapons programme and halted Saddam’s medium and long-range missiles programmes. Iraq’s military strength is now less than half its size than at the time of the last Gulf war.’
‘Iraq probably has no weapons of mass destruction in the commonly understood sense of the term—namely a credible device capable of being delivered against a strategic city target. It probably still has biological toxins and battlefield chemical munitions, but it has had them since the 1980s when US companies sold Saddam anthrax agents and the then British Government approved chemical and munitions factories. Why is it now so urgent that we should take military action to disarm a military capacity that has been there for 20 years, and which we helped to create? Why is it necessary to resort to war this week, while Saddam’s ambition to complete his weapons programme is blocked by the presence of UN inspectors?’
I think **carnivorousplant ** raises a good point, but I don’t think the pilot’s request necessarily means he/she accepts the Bush Administration’s line on a link between 9/11 and Iraq.
My youngest son is in the Navy (safely assigned to Honolulu, thank Og) and is home on leave as I write this. Earlier today I had the privelege of lunching with him and several of his friends, some still in the service, some recently out. There were guys who had been in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Everybody’s attitude about the guys who had been in Afghanistan was, “Yeah, high five! Now let’s hope the brass lets us finish the job!” The attitude toward the fellows who had been in Iraq was, “You poor bastards – I pray for those guys ever day!”
This is only one anecdote about five guys, of course, but from what I’ve heard the uniformed talking heads on TV and the ex-grunts I’ve enoucntered say, it’s representative of the military personnel’s attitudes about those two places.
Everyone in uniform believes that, because their comrades are in Afghanistan, and any of them could be sent there any time (some actually relish the thought) that everyone in uniform is “doing something” about 9/11. I guess I feel the same way (Army vet, 1970s). And, like my son and his friends, I just wish “the brass” would let them finish the job.
Yep. I understand that. I say all as a collective nation, because I will politely raise the point that the Senate and House went along with things and authorized the actions. I don’t recall seeing riots in the streets, immediate demonstrations counter to Bush’s decision, in short, nothing.
I think we all took it hook, line, and sinker. I indict myself, you, and the rest of the general public in it’s inherent belief. Granted, I thank God the public doesn’t rise up against the Republic at every decision it feels is bad (there’d be a frickin’ revolution every other week!). But I blame the public through the Congress for not raising the question. We all share the blame.
In this thread, I will not throw down–not right now. But I will let you say that to me in person. And then I’ll tell you what it’s like to build on top of an old Soviet minefield.
Tripler
What’s it like? A little nervewracking, especially when you’re cutting and grading a “6-inch cleared” field.
Oh, and as I mentioned before, I can’t cite, but I will say that I personally am convinced he had some of the delivery systems we thought necessary for his WMDs. I couldn’t tell you a warhead from a car stereo on some of those photographs, but I’m convinced enough.
Tripler
I can only cite myself and my experience. I don’t have a webpage for that. . . :rolleyes:
No, my point was that the good guys can’t get the utilities working and the oil flowing because the bad guys keep blowing stuff and people up.
Calm yourself.
On a re-read of this thread, I’m going to issue an apology and back off from being a jackass. I got fairly distracted from carnivourous’ comment, in that I thought he was attacking Bear_Nenno’s comment on simply following orders.
I do apologize.
I will maintain that we were all somewhat duped into thinking this was a ‘just’ offensive to take.
No, not really. The experts outside the Bush administration (like Ritter and Blix) were pretty clear that there was no evidence for WMDs before the invasion. They were just drowned out by the lies.
Personally I never believed that Iraq was a threat to the U.S. Before the war I did suspect that we’d conveniently find some minor forgotten stockpiles laying around – not enough to endanger the U.S., but enough to give the White House cover for its actions. I was surprised when absolutely nothing turned up. I hadn’t counted on the Bush administration being THAT stupid.
Now because of research that I had done for my job I was probably much better informed about the political situation in the Middle East than the average American. But the information was there for those willing to look.
Political convenience for some (Democrats in Congress), fear of being called a troop hater, or they flat-out DID speak out, but no one was bothering to listen.
