In your hypothetical situation, Lib, the Sergeant Major says “No,” and the Lieutenant doesn’t get paid for about six months, his platoon fails every inspection and field exercise, he gets a lousy efficiency rating and every NCO he runs into will be looking to ambush him. Your lieutenant will never have a vehicle available. He will draw every crap job in the battalion including being the battalion duty officer on New Years Day, Easter, Groundhog’s Day, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Army Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving , Christmas Day and Christmas Eve and his own birthday. His life will be a living horror. In a combat theater it will not only be an unpleasant life, it will be a short one.
What the bright lieutenant does, and has done as long as there have been soldiers, when he gets his first job, usually as a platoon leader, is go to his platoon sergeant and tell the sergeant to run the platoon and he, the lieutenant, will back him up. Often the lieutenant will receive explicit instructions from the company commander or the battalion executive officer that he is to give his platoon sergeant free rein, keep his mouth shut and just watch until he receives further orders.
Most, if not all, young lieutenants know that they don’t know anything and that their fate is in the hand of their NCOs.
This is my Sergeant. There are many like him, but this one is mine.
My sergeant is my best friend. He is my life. I must obey him as I obey my wife. My Sergeant without me is lucky. Without my Sergeant I am useless. My Sergeant must shoot straighter than my Lance Corporals who are trying to kill me. He must shoot them before they shoot me. He might…
My Sergeant knows that what counts in war is not the orders I give, the noise from my suck, nor the smoke that comes out of my ass. He knows it is only the enlisted ranks that count. My Sergeant is superhuman, even as I am not. Thus I will follow him. I will learn my weaknesses, my strengths - if any. I will guard him against the ravages of captains and higher. I will keep my Sergeant informed and in charge, even though I am neither. I will forever emulate him. I will… Before God I swear this creed. My Sergeant is the defender of my country. He is the master of my enemy. He is the savior of my life. I think I love him…
Sometimes we enlisted men need to remind the officers of who really runs things. Everyone knows it is the SNCO’s and to an extent the NCO’s who train the young officers.
I served in the Canadian army for five years; the highest rank I attained was corporal. At one point I was an instructor on an intelligence analysis course that, as the course load would have it, had a bunch of officers has students. So when I walk in to the classroom, who’s in charge - me, or the officers?
Answer: I was. They were expected to follow orders relevant to the organizational structure in place - me as the expert and instructor, they as the students. Had they refused a relevant and legal order (You will write this test, Lieutenant Smith) they technically could have been charged with insubordination (not that it happened, they were a good class.) It’s assumed that both myself and they are under orders, given the situation, to assume that I am in charge. Rank-wise, my authority stemmed for the superior officer (our CO, I guess) who ultimately authorized them being on a course I was instructed. Had they refused a relevant, legal order from ME, they would have technically been disobeying a direct order by a major.
In that case, I had positional authority granted to me by the decision of higher officers to place myself (the corporal) and the students (the officers) in a position where they were, for a specific purpose, my subordinates. I still saluted them and addressed them as “sir” and “ma’am,” but my temporary position of authority existed simply for practical concerns; I knew the material, they did not.
As a matter of practical concern, in the military, position is more important than rank. 99% of the time you are doing what you’re told to by your direct supervisor; occasions on which you’re being handed orders by people who outrank you but are not in your chain of command are very, very rare indeed, and shouldn’t always be followed, even if they’re technically legal.
Another good example; my best buddy in the Army was a section commander, a corporal at the time, and was on one occasion responsible for adminstering a number of privates who had been given extra duties for a variety of dumb screwups. At about 6 PM the father of one of the privates - who happened to be a major - arrived to pick his son up, and he demanded he be released from extra duties. When by buddy refused, he ordered my buddy to release his son. My buddy correctly refused the order outright - not in a disrespectful fashion, but simply by saying “I cannot do that, sir, my sergeant major has ordered these men do this work under my supervision. You can speak to him if you like.” The major was subsequently rebuffed by the sergeant major AND our commanding officer. He had stepped outside his authority.
Practically speaking that’s why buck lieutentants don’t order sergeant majors around. The sergeant major of a regiment derives his authority directly from the regimental’s commanding officer - a colonel - and his duties are presumably being done on orders from the colonel. The lieutenant would be stepping on the colonel’s toes by barking at his sergeant major. The segeant major is exercising the will of a far more senior officer, so why SHOULD be listen to a lieutenant? Better salute him, though.
If this seems confusing, look at it this way; it’s just like any job. If you work at BigCo Ltd., and your manager tells you to do something, you do it. If a manager from a different department comes strolling into your cube and ordering you around the correct response is to say you have to go to your boss. The army’s no different.
Nearly all other armies except the USA have the rank of Field Marshall – it comes above a 4-star General.
Interesting story of why only the USA does not have this rank, but has 5-star General instead.
At about WWI time, the leading (maybe only) candidate to be promoted to this was General Marshall. He said “I’ll be damned if I’m going to be called ‘Marshall Marshall’.” So he just added on 1 star and became a 5-star General.
And the US Army has done it this way ever since.
P.S. The rough equivalent of Field Marshall rank would be Fleet Admiral (aka “Admiral of the Fleet”). But one is Navy & the other Army, separate chains of command, so “out-rank” doesn’t really apply.
How about at the upper end, like the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs relative to one of the Chiefs of Staff to one of the Unified Combatant Commanders? Even though they’re all 4-star generals, there’s an element of positional authority there, too? Who orders who around?
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is the highest ranking member of the US military, according to current statutes. He reports directly to the SecDef and the President. However, the chain of command for the Unified Combatant Commanders also goes directly to the Sec Def and the President. The JCS serve as the President’s (and the National Security Council’s) primary military advisers, but cannot, as far as I know, issue an order directly to a Unified Combatant Commander without the President’s or SecDef’s approval.
Since I was researching, I think can say:
Huh? Sounds apocryphal to me.
Pershing was the only one given the title “General of the Armies” besides Washington, but he never wore more that 4 stars. Marshall was promoted in 1944, somewhat after World War I, and within days of four other men.
As a former AF officer, I can tell you that indeed the NCOs do in fact get things done. IMHO, good officers provide the best environment possible for the enlisted men to do their job. Officers also run interference from upstairs, and provide goals and mission. They listen more than talk.
I cannot imagine any officer actually doing what the OP addresses, even as a green 2nd Lt.
I was in constant appreciation of my NCOs…and as a brand new 2nd Lt, had the wisdom to meet with all of my section chiefs and tell them that “You are the experts. Suggest tactfully what should be done and not done. Give me the benefit of your experience”.
There is a third type of military authority. That is the earned authority that comes from experience and getting the mission accomplished. That is what my NCOs got from me, and I like to think that I earned from them.
In memory of CMSgt Pirtle and MSgt Doyle. True men of honor and authority. Thanks.
Bingo. You’ve just described what it is that comforts me about the information in this thread. The notion of a newly commissioned Second Lieutenant barking orders at the Sergeant Major of the Army is frankly frightening. But the “earned authority” you describe greatly eases my concerns.
Is this sort of thing taught to officer candidates? Are they told in class that they may not rush out willy-nilly and abuse their authority over NCOs? Or is it just a sort of unwritten rule?
Second, in the United States Armed Forces, there are two things that relate to precedence (“outrank”). The First is, of course, rank: higher rank takes precedence over lower rank. Second, is lineal number: lower lineal number means more senior. My reference is the MILPERSMAN (available, sadly, as the slowest and worst-connected link on the internet, from www.bupers.navy.mil). If anyone can find a better (read: html file) version of the MILPERSMAN, please post it.
It depends on the country. I believe that in most countries, a marshall outrank a general.
But since you refered to a marshall of France, I’m going to add that in France, marshall is a title, not a rank. So, a marshall of France doesn’t outrank a general.
It can happen that he is actually commanding generals because of his position in the chain of command, and generally and historically, when promoted while in duty, it was the case (like Napoleon’s marshalls, for instance). He would command an army, or all the armies in a theater of operations, etc…
But he could as well be promoted after his retirment, after being removed from his commanding position (like in : “you did very well in the past, but right now…err…we think someone else would do a better job. But you’ll be happy to know that you’re now granted the title of marshall for your past sucesses”), and sometimes after his death (from old age, long after the war he fought in). During WWI, there was another reason to give someone the title of marshall to the head of the french army : being also the leader of the military alliance, with such a title, he looked like being “above” his colleagues from say, Britain.
Hence, a french marshall’s authority is entirely depending on its actual current position in the army and can range from none at all to “commanding everybody”. In other words, for all practical purposes, there’s no difference between a marshall and any other full general. In particular, he’s unlikely to be in command of navy units, hence of outranking an admiral.
And actually, there’s an equivalent title for admirals “Admiral of France”, which is exactly the same concept than the “Marshall of France”, except that it has been extremely rarely granted. I would guess less than a dozen of times in the whole french history.
As for whether a full general would salute a marshall, I’ve no clue. It isn’t obvious. A hint would be that in the french army (and more generally in the french male civilian population, since essentially all french males have been in the military), an officer of higher rank is called “my whatever”. For instance, a captain would be called “my captain” by any person under the rank of captain (and just “captain” by people above his rank). But a marshall is never called “my marshall”, but always “Monsieur le marechal”, showing once again that “marshall” is a title, not a military hierarchical rank (“monsieur”, which means “sir”, is never used when adressing an officer in the french army, except in this case…it’s a “civilian” word).
Also, marshalls are only named for their achievments in time of war. Nobody is granted marshallship in time of peace (except for past achievments, generally after their death).
But once again, this is specific to France, and AFAIK, in most other countries with marshalls (for instance in the former Soviet Union), marshall is a regular army rank, above general, and there are marshalls even in time of peace.
As for the US armed forces, I suppose that the 2 or 3 WWII “generals of the armies” (IIRC the name they were given) would have been more or less the equivalent of the french marshalls.
Lib, it was never formally taught to me, but something that was emphasized many times throughout my ROTC days, and also made pretty clear to me when I arrived at my first command. It’s something that I will be sure to impart on any green Ensigns who show up to any command I’m at in the future.
ski, you’re absolutely right. It was actually the Lt’s duty to stop the SgtMaj and correct him, and a shame that they did not.
A young officer in a hot air balloon was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a man below. He descended a bit more and shouted:
“Excuse me, can you help? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don’t know where I am.”
The man replied: “You are in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground, 2.7 miles west of the Colorado River.”
“You must be a Chief Petty Officer” said the balloonist.
“I am,” replied the Chief. “How did you know?”
“Well,” answered the balloonist, “everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost. Frankly, you’ve not been much help so far.”
The Chief below responded: “You must be a junior officer.”
“I am,” replied the balloonist, “but how did you know?”
“Well,” said the Chief, “you don’t know where you are or where you’re going. You have risen to where you are due to hot air. You made a promise to someone that you have no idea how to keep, and you now expect me to solve your problem. The fact is, you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but somehow it’s now my fault!”
Humble and Proud shallow water Chief sends…
Sometimes it’s taught, other times it’s not. I’ve always taught this sort of thing to our newbie 2LTs, and held back from some of the guys I considered ‘knuckleheads’. I wanted to watch the knuckleheads do their thing the first few months to find out if I was dealing with a genuinely naive person, or someone hellbent on abusing their commission. I think of it as a personality test.
I (a 1LT/O-2) just left my Construction Management shop which had a two TSgts (E-6s) a two SSgts (E-5s), four GS-8 civilians, and the occasional Airman or two (E-3s or E-2s). While I was working this and two other jobs this past fall, I was fortunate enough to have a Chief Master Sergeant (E-9) help cover the shop for me. Chief “M” is a character. And he knew exactly what to do, and when to do it. An indispensible wealth of knowledge and character as far as I’m concerned. The only reason I let him initiate the salute was (as he told me), “Hey, some newbie Airman might see and get really confused.”
My point is, that any Lieutenant or Captain that doesn’t know how to talk to or when to tactfully question a senior NCO “isn’t worth the mud on their boots” (supposing said officer ever got mud on their boots in the first place :rolleyes: ).
Tripler
Listen to your NCOs. They will perform miracles.
It was most explicitely taught to me (in the Canadian Navy). During my Basic Officer Qualification course, they spent a few minutes explaining the difference between the letter of the QO&R and reality, especially vis a vis NCOs. As an aside, my first X.O. was a former British SAS NCO who had retired to Canada and become a reserve officer. Any questions about the relative role of junior officers and senior NCOs left unanswered by my BOQ or Command courses were answered most emphatically by Bill.
Two true stories to illustrate how things sometimes happen in the Air Force:
First:
As the maintenance officer of a Munitions Squadron, I worked for the Squadron Commander (he was a Lt Col and I was a Captain), so except for the personnel and office types, all of the 465 men of the squadron “worked” for me. I had various 1st and 2nd Lts in charge of the various shops and functions, and senior NCOs working for each of the Lts.
One day while standing in the hall, I overhead a 1st Lt and a TSgt discussing how to store and maintain certain munitions. Their views were in opposition, and the TSgt was adamant in insisting that the munitions be stored in a certain way for safety, and to be in compliance with AF regulations. The Lt insisted he was right and (pretty close paraphrase coming) said to the TSgt…“I’m an officer and I have a college education, so you are wrong”
At that point I came into the room where they were…the TSgt popped to attention…something he wouldn’t normally do, nor would be expected to do…maybe he saw my face! I asked for a reference to the appropriate reg, and the TSgt immediately quoted the relevant section. (And he was right) Then I quietly asked the Lt to follow me into my office, which had a pass-through window into the room we had just left.
When we arrived in my office, I proceeded to rip the Lt apart…loudly and specifically. I then assigned him to follow the TSgt around all day and try to actually learn his job.
Later in the hall, I passed the TSgt…he whispered “Thank you, Sir” BTW, he was a totally professional troop.
Second:
While a 2nd Lt, I was in charge of flight line operations, and was riding around in an operations van (like a UPS truck) with the NCO, who was a MSgt. As I sat in the dark truck observing the MSgt and how things worked, I noticed that the Captain who was the OIC of munitions in this squadron (not the same as above), was driving around and telling the loading crews what to do, and generally in my view interfering.
I asked my MSgt why the Captain was directly giving the loading crews instructions…shouldn’t he be talking to either me or to the MSgt. I will never forget this moment…the MSgt drove quickly over to where the Captain was, and turned to me and said “Well, Lt, just what are you going to do about it?”
I got up from my seat…went out and over to the Captain’s truck, and asked respectfully if the Captain would please address his concerns to myself or to the MSgt. The Captain gave me a dirty look, and said sure…and then drove off quickly.
I was feeling pretty scared about going up against the Captain, and walked slowly back to the van, where I found the MSgt standing in the rain holding the door open. I also noticed when I got in that he had transmitted the entire conversation over the communications net. I found that the enlisted men would do almost anything if given support and respect.
From these two true stories, it is evident that officers and enlisted men are all human. The military offers a great chance to bring out the best in all ranks…and in a good outfit, all personnel work together.
I am so glad I’ve got a great unit to work with. I’ve got TSgts who ‘will take care of it for me’ after several months of me struggling with some mundane detail, and I make sure I cover their tails with “strategic” issues in construction that the base commander asks questions about.
In my humble opinion, ‘rank’ is a pecking order, especially given that some may have been in longer than you’ve been alive. Everything depends on how well you work with other people in whatever you do.
Tripler
I could be wrong, but I think my troops like me . . .
