Hey, does anyone have a link to an online resource for Tolkien text? I’m trying to get ahold of Tolkien’s description of orcs from the Appendices in the back of ROTK, which basically describes them as your average teenager.
Well, in HOMES, JRRT writes quite clearly that one of Nimrodel’s handmaids lived with a mortal sea-coast dweller near Dol Amroth, gave birth to his child, then departed one night leaving the child behind. I expect the handmaid tried to sail west, as that was why Amroth and Nimrodel left Lorien to begin with, to reach Valinor.
Interesting. That would seem to support the position they were not given the same choice as Luthien/Arwen.
About Elladan and Elrohir…I’m fairly certain they made the same choice as Arwen, to become mortal, after the fashion of Elrond’s brother Elros, later Tar-Minyatur, first king of Numenor. The Numenoreans were granted lifespans much longer than other men, in reward for aiding the elves against Morgoth and later Sauron. Elros lived for 500 years, as did most of his descendants. The Numenoreans only startd living shorter lives after they were corrupted by Sauron. But Aragorn, descended from Isildur and Elendil, who were still faithful to the Valar, lived longer lives. Aragorn is about 70 years old at the time of the WR. I suppose Elladan and Elrohir would also have longer lifespans. I think they chose to become mortal because Elrond’s children had to make their choice by the time Elrond left for Valinor. Since there is no metion of his sons in the Last Riding of the Keepers of the Rings, they must have chosen to stay behind and become mortal.
About interbreeding…Tolkien states specifically in the Prologue that Hobbits are related to Men. There are no mentions of Man/Hobbit crosses, though. Presumably they could produce fertile offspring. As for Elves and Men, that was covered beautifully in earlier posts. Orcs are, in fact, corrupted Elves, bred by Morgoth early in the First Age, soon after the Elves awoke. This may be why they hate and fear Elves beyond all reason, even having an aversion to touching anything made by Elves. There are no mentions of women among the Orcs, and Tolkien later theorized that they were ‘spawned’. Exactly what he meant by that, I have no idea, but I’m fairly certain this is where the writers got the idea for that amniotic mud sack scene. Orcs also do not die naturally- they can obviously be killed in battle, but they are also, like Elves, not subject to aging or disease. Elves can also die of grief, but I doubt Orcs do much grieving. The Orcs are in many ways very interesting, since they’re so ubiquitous but so mysterious. It has been postulated that an Orc kidnapped at birth/spawning and raised by Elves might become good and elf-like. A baby Elf raised by Orcs might become orkish. Possibly, since one is merely a version of the other, they’re far more alike than what one might at first think. Both of them practice their own healing arts; both can speak and write; both are competent and ingenious metal workers. It seems the only thing truly divinding them is their motives.
On the other hand, Tolkien also said that orcs multiply “after the manner of the children of Iluvatar”–which I interpret as meaning that they do the same ol’ in-'n-out sexual reproduction that everyone else does. Amniotic mud sacks are only required to create mutant hybrid species, like the uruk-hai.
Not disputing your line of reasoning, but if this were the case, Elrond certainly took the loss of his daughter much harder than the loss of his sons. The parting of Elrond and Arwen was the most bitter in the history of the world (or something like that). Elrond & the boys…eh. Not so much.
I liked your comments about the similarity of elves & orcs. Another example: the orcs that capture Merry & Pippin have a “magical” sustaining drink, their equivalent of lembas.
From ROTK, Book 6 Chap 6:
That is the whole heart of the problem. The text manages to imply both an inherited choice due to parentage & a choice due to circumstances identical to Luthien’s. However, I think the textual wieght runs to that of Luthien given her specific words.
Again - the main problem is that after the wedding, we don’t really hear of the sons at all, other than a reference I am now having difficulty tracking down. Although I would add if the choice was a result of parentage, that does not preclude any of them staying in middle earth after Elrond’s departure, merely that they must choose. As elves are bound to this world even after death, as long as the ‘boys’ choose to be elves, he would run into them eventually anyway. Arwen, on the other hand, departed fully from the world as did Luthien.
The film isn’t too relevant to such discussions I think.
Yepp, thats not what I meant. I mean did she only even get the option to renounce her “immortality” because she was part human? I assumed (probably incorrectly, I have not made a move on The Big S yet) that any elf could choose to age and die, but it was usually only those who loved one of mortal race who made such a choice. I didn’t realise that the choice was only in connection to her mixed heritage? And still I wonder was any time limit given to them to make this choice, the one of whether to live as men or elves, that is the “when” I was referring to. It seems more of a case of having your cake and eating it, than choosing race
Well, Arwen’s about a thousand years old when she makes her choice… It was her human heritage that gave her the choice. Also bear in mind that there are relatively few half-elves (the ones discussed so far in this thread is just about all of them, and we’re talking thousands of years here…).
I was under the impression that some elves grew tired of the world and “faded away.” I doubt this means that they became transparent and vanished, but you never know in Middle Earth.
deathawk, great summary of the whole half-elven thing. But you missed mentioning two very obscure ones, Elwing’s brothers, Elured and Elurin (btw, both of those should have an accent over the last vowel). As far as I have been able to find out, (don’t have the Silm. handy, am working from online sources) they disappear in one of the battles of the first age and are presumed dead, although nobody actually knows for sure.
You are correct - I did gloss over them since they don’t play much of a role. They were left in the woods to die by Celegorm after the final slaughter in Doriath. You pretty much wrapped 'em up.
Elrond’s sons can remain elves and still be in Middle Earth after Elrond’s departure. It is their choice, not dependent on Elrond. Besides, many elves remained in Middle Earth during the Fourth Age, including Legolas (who established some sort of haven for elves nearer Arangorn’s capital city than Mirkwood).
Elves can also just grow tired of the Middle Earth and sail away. This is what Elrond’s wife did after she was attacked by orcs.
Isn’t there some mention at the beginning of FOTR that some of the hobbits may have interbred with elves or humans ages ago? If I remember, they mention Pippin or Merry’s family, stating that the tallest hobbits came from that family, presumably because they had interbred with men.
KarlGrenze
I was taking the textual clues from ROTK to imply that if Arwen’s choice devloved from Elrond, rather than being the choice of Luthien, then it would seem that Elrond’s departure and accompanying him or not, sealed the choice - in the case of Elrond’s children only. If the choice is not pegged to his departure, then you are all kinds of right. I just find it interesting that there are so few clues regarding them, and that Tolkien did not clearly specify that Arwen’s choice had nothing to do with her lineage.
From the Prologue of FOTR: The Tooks (Merry) are attributed with a greater Fallowhidish strain than many other familys. The description of the Fallowhides is that they were taller and fairer than the other strains of Hobbit. The Prologue limits any breeding questions to the note that Hobbits are related to Man, more so than say Elves or Dwarves. Not really much else there to sink yer teeth into.
Maybe it’s Frito you are thinking of?
KarlGrenze, I’ve read JRRT pretty extensively and I don’t recall any mention at all of elvish blood in hobbits.
QtM (who’s trying to trace his own lineage back to Eldarion son of Elessar, thus tying into the half-elven and full elven, along with Maiar lines. No luck yet, but I do have an ancient Norse ancestor named Gandalf!)
Nitpick: their version of the sustaining drink Elrond gives Gandalf before they leave Imladris- Gandalf calls it miruvor. See The Ring Goes South.
Huh? Meriadoc Brandybuck. Peregrine Took. The Tooks are also the adventurous ones, I think. The explanation makes sense, but it’s Pippin, not Merry.
While we’re picking nits–it is Peregrin.
And no Took ever beat a Brandybuck for adventurousness.
Nitpicker’s nitpicky nitpick. Well, that’s correct if you insist on referring to him in English. In the Common speech (well, actually in hobbitish, which has essentially died out except for in personal and place names) it’s Kalimac Brandagamba. That’s what Froda and Banazir always called him.
Let me just say this in my defense:
:smack:
:smack: :smack: :smack: :smack:
I believe that explains things in a clear, concise manner.
I apologize. I just remembered the mention of either men or elvish blood, couldn’t remember which one.
Nitpicking the nitpicker… No Took ever beat a Brandybuck for inquisitiveness!