I always got the impression that any time these Elf-Human unions took place the higher powers generally stepped in and did some high level adjudicating, offering choices or pronouncing dooms. It didn’t seem to leave much room for ‘Halfbreeds’. Invariably they zapped the choosees into Elf or Not Elf. But then again I’ve only read the Silmariliion a half dozen times. 
A good point was brought up here re: Elros, Elrond’s brother, and his kids. Elrond’s kids get to choose; Elros’ apparently didn’t. What’s up with that? Could it be maybe that Elrond married Celebrian, an elf, so his kids were actually 3/4 elf, while Elros married a human woman, making his kids 3/4 human? So a more-than-half elf is given a choice, but a more-than-half human isn’t? What is this, some of Valinorean Jim Crow law?
Hobbit races
One interesting thing is how closely the three hobbit races mirror the three elvish races. IIRC, one of the hobbit races likes water, another is friendly with elves and good with their hands, while another is taller, blonder and good with language.
The choice of Arwen
IIRC, the story of Arwen and Aragorn implies that Arwen still had a choice when Aragorn dies. Doesn’t he say something to her like, “You’ve got two choices, you can either head west and we part forever or you can follow through, die and we’ll meet again”?
This would answer the sons of Elrond question: If she still had a choice to make after Elrond left, so would his sons.
** This would actually explain a lot. If orcs are really elves, orcs who lose their bodies can hang about. This might explain where various “evil spirits” came from e.g. barrow wights.
Yeep. What a place for a newbie to make her first post. Just tossing out a few things here off the top of my head, as the books are waaay across the library floor.
Re: the whole Earendil thing: As I recall from the Silmarillion, his wife, Elwing (she who jumped into the sea with the Silmarils) chose to be Elven because of Luthien, and Earendil chose the same for her sake, although ‘his heart rested more with the children of Men’ or something to that effect.
Honestly, the way I saw it all was this. All the children of elven-human pairings got the choice, and whatever they chose, their children would become. Therefore, when Elros chose to be human, his children were human, but with a longer lifespan than usual. That would explain the resentment by his descendents, perhaps. Elrond, his brother (that was his brother, right?) chose to be elven, and his descendants would be elven as a result.
I think the ROTK appendix mentioned that Elladan and Elrohir, Arwen’s brothers, spent a lot of time with the sons of men and Aragorn’s folk, which was somewhat distressing to their father.
I also remember someone mentioning once that the whole Aragorn/Arwen thing was essentially a repeat of the Beren/Luthien thing - after all, it’s said in passing in FOTR that some said that Arwen was Luthien returned again. But Arwen didn’t get brought up in front of the gods and asked to choose one or the other like Luthien was. She just said ‘I cleave to thee, Dunadan’ or whatever was in that appendix.
Of course, that implies that any elf could choose to be human and forsake their race’s eternal gifts, much like angels choosing to fall.
Just some random thoughts…
-A2K
Welcome to the board, alexandria
I’d just like to apologize for all the confusion I unwittingly sowed. I knew that all the half-breed bloodlines eventually converged into Elwing and Earendil (barring a few non-central characters), but I had totally forgotten about Dior.
Perhaps my phrasing in the opening sentance of the post is the issue. My point was that the phrase “give the gift back” referred to the ability of the Numenoreans, and uses as its reference the point that Eru’s gift to man was ‘death’ in a true sense (passing beyond the circles of the world, never to return). In looking that post over I should have made that a bit clearer.
The only problem with this reading is her immediate rejoinder: There is now no ship that would carry her to the utmost west - i.e. the choice was made long ago.
Well, she may be simply saying what she appears to be saying – the havens are closed. OTOH, IIRC, Legolam builds a ship after the death of Arwen and heads west.
I suppose she is speaking somewhat metaphorically, however, Aragorn clearly thinks that she still has the option of changing her mind and he ought to know. I mean, you’d think that the topic would have come up over the previous 150-odd years.
Alexandria2000
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Welcome to the boards! We have gotten a bit deep down here haven’t we?
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Your base reading is correct - Earendil & Elwing were given the choice after his mission to Aman, and you recall the reasoning correctly.
The problem comes down to the phrasing of Manwe’s judgement. Which gives the choice to them and their sons.
So we have been debating whether the choice extended also to Elrond’s immediate offspring. The reason we have done so is that Luthien’s choice also resulted from a judgement by Manwe, in which he explicitly states he was given power to do so by Eru (Illuvatar). Its made quite clear that the even the Valar, on their own, have no power to change the fate of any of Illuvatar’s children (Elves & Men). Our problem is there is no handy judgement from Manwe to indicate what is going on in Arwen’s case - as you note. Hence the issue of what to make of Elladan & Elrohir.
I agree completely with the reading that Arwen & Aragorn are meant to be paralleled with Beren & Luthien, although with some important differences.
Under this reading, she must have recieved a choice in the same manner as did Luthien. As was pointed out elsewhere in this thread (I think, there is another just to confuse matters), it would appear this choice is not always given, Qagdop pointed out that in the case of Dol Amroth, the elf maiden slipped out after giving birth, presumably in order to sail to the west.
[sidebar rant]
The parallel tales are why I have a real problem with Jackson’s interpretation of Arwen. Arwen as the evenstar of her people reflects the change from the first age. Luthien as morningstar, reflects the active youthful side of the Noldor. The Noldor did things, actively. By the late third age, the power of the elves on middle earth had waned, and rather than being the active opposition to Sauron, they had mainly become supporters and advisors. Thus, Arwen is inspiration to Aragorn, but does not actively assist him. She is not, nor can she properly be within the mythos, a warrior-babe. GRRRRRR. Thank you for letting me get that out.
[/sidebar rant]
Maybe she had that option (to switch back) because the gods hadn’t gone ‘boom, you’re human’ unlike the past recipients of this boon? Maybe she could switch back…wait.
backs up brain
Maybe she didn’t become human literally, since only the Gods could do that, but remained elven among Men, and chose to die when she decided her time was up? She was elven, but had no reason to remain alive after her reason for staying was gone, and she couldn’t rejoin her kinsmen, anyway. Ain’t it romantic?
Darn. Hadn’t thought of that. That’s even more depressing.
Grr. Couldn’t edit.
So, in that case, no. Elladan and Elrohir and Arwen did NOT get the choice. They were Elven, no more, no less, because their father had made the choice for them beforehand.
Darn. I’ll have to go back and reread and see if I’m right about that chain of thought.
-A2K
Legolas sailed after the death of Aragorn. I gather that his filial love for Aragorn was the only thing that kept him fron sailing earlier. So its about the same time and indicates that the elves could still sail the straight path. I read her point as being that she was mortal. At that point in the history of middle earth, only the elves could sail the straight path that led to Aman, as the seas were bent during the overthrow of Numenor. So if she is now mortal, there is no ship to carry her, as her presence would prevent the ship from reaching Aman. My reading of their final exchange is that it really never came up in the interim, as Arwen only truly understood what it was to be mortal at the point of Aragorn’s death.
But wait…when Legolas left he took Gimli with him…at least that’s how the story goes in the appendix…
My head hurts. 
Alexandria2000
Important point to bear in mind: Elves who die go to the Halls of Mandos, and thus remain in this world. Men who die pass briefly through those halls before passing forever from the world. If Arwen is elven, she would pass to the Halls, and thus be parted from Aragorn forever. If Arwen is mortal, she passes within beyond the world and is parted from Elrond forever. The tale of Aragorn & Arwen indicates she is the latter, and Elrond’s grief at their final parting only makes sense if it is the latter.
Isn’t this fun?
Yep, it does say that. Appendix A part III final para speculates that Galadrial interceded on his behalf. Gimli’s departure is presented as a ‘rumor’, but I think it’s meant to be read as ‘fact’.
The way I’ve always understood the half-elven choice still seems to be consistent:
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Once Elros chose to be human, none of his descendants got to choose. Tough luck. Only half-elven descendents of half-elves who chose to remain elves get to choose.
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I always assumed the boys (Elodan & Elrohir) chose to remain elves. With no mortal love interest, their choice was easy and uninteresting, dramatically, which explains why we never hear about it. So they sailed west eventually, like Legolas.
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At what point was Arwen’s choice irrevocable? This seems like angels dancing on a head of a pin. It was irrevocable in her mind when she told Frodo that he could have her seat on the ship. Whether or not she could have changed her mind up to her actual death…we’ll never know.
But Arwen answers that her choice was made long ago, and that she can not go to the west.
Note that is it not for lack of ship. Legolas left shortly after Aragorn’s death by building his own ship.
if they sealed it in a box and just walked right in, itd be a pretty shitty book, right?
anyone know any more about led zep’s fascination w/ toilken
(“misty mountain hop” is a song of theirs
“the dark lord rides in force tonight…the ring wraiths ride in black” -both lyrics from battle of evermore
i also think theres something about it in ramble on…)
any help?
There was a rather long thread about Zeppelin & Tolkien a couple month back:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126556
It seems that she made her choice on the hill in Lothlorien, several years before the events of The Lord of the Rings began, but I don’t think that she became able to die until she married Aragorn. It just doesn’t make sense to me that she became “as a mortal woman” until then, because Aragorn could have died in the time after the pledge and before the destruction of the ring. Of course, she still could have chosen to be able to die like men in order to rejoin her beloved after death. Certainly after they were married, she couldn’t have changed her mind, even if she didn’t give her seat away. Of course, this is all my opinion.
The question I have is that why didn’t Sauron know after he took shape again that the ring was still in existence? Didn’t he know that by destroying the ring, he would also be destroyed? I thought that as its maker, he would know everything about its powers. Maybe he thought that he was just that strong to be able to take shape again after the ring’s supposed demise.