Arnold Schwarzanegger gave up his Austrian life…and found a better one in the U.S. Jesus gave up eating bread in the swear of his brow…and resides in perfection in Heaven. Not much of a sacrifice.
Now, yeah, those few hours of agony, that’s impressive. Jesus didn’t “die” for our sins, because Jesus isn’t dead. But he suffered like fuck.
Not much of a sacrifice, indeed. Many prisoners of war have suffered and been through far more than JC, and with a hell of a lot less fanfare and purpose. Same true for long term cancer patients, those with Alzheimer’s, Lou Gehrig’s disease, the list is long.
And gosh, JC being half man, half god, maybe he didn’t suffer any at all, and simply turned off the pain receptors, yet gave what many today would consider an academy award type performance. But writers wouldn’t have caused near the emotional groundswell of believers crying on his behalf if he pretended to feel nothing. (Can’t believe this shit still works on grown adults.) Had the writers went off script and had JC cracking jokes and such while he was up on the cross, it wouldn’t have tugged at their heart strings. Naw, he had to go out like this so that Mel Gibson could get his billion dollar blockbuster hit!
Joseph Campbell referred to the resurrection as a clown act, and this is from somebody who seemed to generally have quite a bit of respect for the power of myth.
Right…that was for me. That’s why, right before He left for His death weekender, he hollered out, “This is for you, Smartass.”
Whenever any Christian tells me what Jesus did FOR ME, the thought that runs through my head is, “I am unique and special. Just like everyone else.”
And, for the record, since I am not a sadist and I don’t think “human suffering” necessarily equates with “noble sacrifice”, the answer is, yes. I would MUCH rather have the slurpees and fries. And I’d be pleased to know that Jesus didn’t have to suffer unnecessarily in order to provide them. Because, honestly, he was a bit self-righteous, but I never really hated Him.
And if God weren’t a sadist, He would have agreed with me.
-VM
Hey, I’m trying to be generous here. My understanding is that would be the Christian thing to do.
-VM
Fair enough, except for the “for our sins” part. As of 2,000 years ago, I’m confident that I had not committed a single sin. Not even a thought-sin. Even today, I’m pretty sure I haven’t done anything that bad.
And if I do, I think I should get the punishment, not some random dude from the distant past. The idea that it would please me for someone else to be punished for my transgressions makes me a little nauseated.
No, really, I appreciate the gesture, but this just isn’t right. And if your God thinks this is a fair way to run a universe, you’ve picked the wrong one.
-VM
Holy crap…maybe He was never actually dead…
-VM
God: Hello, Smartass, I am your God.
Smartass: Er, hi…dude, I think your hair is on fire.
God: Don’t worry, it’s fine. Listen, I am all-powerful and all knowing, and I really love you.
Smartass: That is so awesome. Since You’re here, I’m wondering if you could help me with this social awkwardness thing…it really makes it difficult to achieve my life goals.
God: I’ll think about it. However, I’ve already done something much better for you.
Smartass: Really?
God: Oh, yeah. See, I caused a woman to give birth to my Son, without having sex.
Smartass: That’s impressive, but it sounds kinda mean. Why not let her do the fun part? I’m betting that YOU could rock her world.
God: I’m not finished. I caused My Son to live for several decades on your world, surrounded by people that didn’t listen to what He was saying. Then, I let some other people torture Him to death. Let me be clear, I did this specifically for you. His death had to happen because you are so disobedient. It’s important that you appreciate the sacrifice My Son–and by “My Son”, I mean “I”–made for you.
Smartass: Wow. So, um…thanks?
God: And now, I…
Smartass: No, no. Really, it’s all good. No further assistance required. I can’t really explain it, but I feel like I should run away as fast as I can now.
-VM
So the Governor of Calisota is going to pardon a condemned criminal, because there are mitigating circumstances in his conviction.
But, first, the Governor has to execute his own son, because the price of a life-for-a-life has to be paid.
Strange jurisprudence…
I’ve always figured God (being all-powerful) could have just issued a declaration. The nice High Priest in the Temple would find a new set of Tablets of the Law in the Holy of Holies, and these tablets would explain the whole new Forgiveness Theology. No more animal sacrifice is required, God is to be worshipped in three persons, the Son has symbolically taken on everyone else’s sin (it’s tattooed on his forehead and right hand) and you don’t have to cut off the end of your schvantzes if you don’t want to.
Much rejoicing.
Clearly, we think alike. However, I have it on the authority of a number of Christians that such a God is completely implausible.
-VM
I missed last week’s church service because the people driving me there couldn’t make it. I got there last night though. Last week’s service was about whether God is evil based on parts of the Old Testament. e.g. Deut 20:16 “However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.”
One of the pastor’s arguments was that the Jews didn’t follow God’s order anyway.
Then last night it was about what Christians have against homosexuality. In a video they showed it said that it is like the sin of greed… it is just another sin.
In the sermon the pastor said he’d look at what the Bible says… he quoted the first part of Leviticus 20:13 but he didn’t tell the congregation that it was just the first bit. He should have said it was Leviticus 20:13a.
He quoted: “If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.”
He left out “They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
I had my hand up to tell him but he said he’d answer later. I said “In Leviticus 20:13 you left out…” but he cut me off.
I tried to say it during the sermon… then after the prayer…
Some Christians spoke to me after the service about it. I also talked to the pastor. Then I talked to a guy that was very good at responding to my questions/issues. I brought up about 10 of them. I had met my match. I’ll talk to the guy more next week.
As far as the sermon went I said that the half of the verse he left out was important because it is the verse non-Christians have a lot of problems with. Also it showed that since the punishment for gay sex was more severe than the punishment for greed it seemed a greater sin.
The Jews rarely do, they are responsible for a lot of the world’s ills, even today. 
This actually seems to be a standard pat answer, not necessarily blaming the Jews, although they do get their share of it, but humans as a whole. Just as long as the finger isn’t pointed in God’s direction, this answer seems to do. And of course, many a times doing God’s will led to killing if you were following his orders. Considering how God was always treating his own people, and disappointed in them, it’s no great surprise the Jews at times they wished they were still held slaves captive in Egypt.
Do you remember any of his answers to them? Rarely, do I find a religious person’s answers makes sense, so I’d be curious why you thought his answers were so good.
Personally, I’m surprised they put up with you, actually. Back in my church days while a kid, no Q&A sessions allowed, and in bible school, where you were allowed to ask some questions, you certainly didn’t ask anything too difficult, you basically had to lob them softballs, and just accept whatever they spoon fed you, without really any follow up.
Which suggests to me that you have to hang them upside down when you kill them…
From what I’ve seen, this is fairly standard operating procedure for all the Bible-based faiths: They quote the parts of the text that are convenient to the message they’re touting and leave out the rest. And what parts are considered relevant to what topic changes as attitudes evolve. Sometimes, they’ll give you some sort of justification, other times not. So, for instance, the reason that all Christians don’t have to be circumcised is that, since Jesus, they’re operating under a “new covenant” with God. That’s also why people aren’t expected to kill critters for God anymore–I guess after Jesus got caught up in it, God realized the whole thing had gone too far.
It wasn’t that long ago that human slavery was considered by many to be in perfect keeping with the teachings of the Bible. I seem to also recall within my own lifetime certain people managing to find Biblical support for racism.
Also, don’t forget that Christians have their in-the-club views and their for-public-consumption views. So, while this guy may still be of a mind to think homosexuals deserve to die, he’s not ready to say that to the general public. If they want people to be in the club, they can’t actively spread a message that will run them off. Don’t assume that they’ll give the same answer to an obvious skeptic like yourself as they would to small group of true believers.
These ever-changing interpretations of “God’s Will” represent one of the many great examples of cognitive dissonance you’ll find among Christians: Apparently, eternal unchanging God can change His mind–or we can change our minds about what He meant when He said what He said–in response to prevailing public opinion.
I’d never have predicted such a democratically-minded God based on the first few books of the Bible…
-VM
I was raised Catholic, and they generally were ready for questions, but the answers weren’t completely satisfying (how could they be?). Rather than debate you, they would just give you something that started with, “As Catholics, we believe…” And I was too young to be ready with, “Yeah, but 20 years ago we believed…”
If I had been, well, the nuns never had a great deal of patience with smart-asses.
Oddly enough, I also spent a year at a high school that was Southern Baptist-flavored. I didn’t challenge them too much–they got WAY too worked up. Besides, in the first week there, I was told by one of the other kids that I was going to Hell for being Catholic, and had a “Bible” teacher spend 20 minutes explaining how it’s not enough to believe in Jesus: We must believe on Jesus. Never did quite figure out what the hell he meant.
Of course, these kinds of, um, “poetic” re-workings of English seem to be par for the course in religious discussion. To this day, if you say Jesus, half the time I picture a lamb (and not just any lamb, but “lamb-of-God”–not to be confused with “rack-of-lamb”).
It’s a fine line that you must walk: Asking questions is encouraged; asking pointed questions is often blasphemy.
Which reminds me…when I was about 8 or 9 years old I made a joke about some religious saying, and my grandmother heard me (Southern Baptist). She informed me that I had blasphemed. Based on the Catholic dogma I had been taught, I said I’d be sure and mention it at confession and be forgiven. Then she produced a Bible and quoted a passage that said that blasphemy was the one unforgivable sin (don’t remember the cite). At that age, this was a pretty crushing blow: One slip of the tongue, and I was doomed to Hell for All Eternity, and nothing I could do about it. This may have been when I first experienced the stomach-wrenching disorientation of trying to conceptualize eternity. Quite a few sleepless nights and no little frantic praying ensued.
Believe it or not, a similar thing happened with a different grandmother (Methodist) not more than a year later. I was fighting with my brother and called him an idiot. With shocking speed, a Bible was produced, a cite located, and my grandmother intoned something to the effect of “Whosoever shall say to his brother, ‘thou fool’, will suffer the fires of Hell.”
In case it’s not obvious, I was a bit of a handful as a child.
If they wanted me to think about Hell, they sure succeeded. At some point, though, I figured out the upside: If you’re telling me I’ve already lost the game, then don’t expect me to play anymore. If I’m going to Hell anyway, there’s no point making me go to to church, right? Or bitching at me about my sins. “It doesn’t matter, I already committed the worst one.”
So, if it seems like a carry a grudge against Christian faiths, well, at least I can say I came by it honest.
-VM
Why do you think that Jesus died for us? He certainly never said anything about saving anyone but Jews…why are we assuming that any of this applies to non-Jewish people?
What if he really only died for Jewish sins and Jewish salvation?
-VM
I was in grade school…I may have been around ten…and I asked a foolish question of my friends, out on the playground during recess.
How can God sit on top of clouds, when clouds are just water vapor? He’d just fall right through.
This staggering theological insight was too much for them to reason with, so they beat the living shit out of me.
It took me many, many years to be able to be friends with Christians again. I burned with fury against the entire faith for a long time. (Credit where it’s due, a minister, on a computer BBS discussion group, very much like this one, engaged reasonable with me and talked me down from my rage.)
Some people are able to respond with “The soft answer that turns away wrath”…and some aren’t!
(Still, memo: if you want someone to believe what you believe…don’t beat them bloody!)
You know, the way so many religious asshats operate, it’s a wonder that plenty of those of us who have eventually walked away DO NOT carry a lot of emotional baggage.
If you are reading this, are an “ex-” and are at peace with he past, and perhaps also never had to take years calming down either, that’s great. I’m perfectly happy for your outcome. It’s just hard for me to imagine looking back over the way I myself was treated with serenity.
What about what Paul says and also Mark 16:15-16?
“He [Jesus] said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Yes, it’s called proof texting. Considering the bible is made up of some 40 main authors, and countless hundreds of other interpolations, over a period of time, with often completely different viewpoints, one can easily make the bible say what he wants, by doing just that, pointing out to something that justifies what he wants it to say, and conveniently ignoring the other parts that often say the exact opposite. I admire something Susan B. Anthony once said: “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.” How true!
Never heard of on Jesus either. Of course, the main purpose that the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) was formed in 1845 was to defend slavery, and as you already know, they certainly had the scriptures to back up their contention, both in the OT, and every bit as much in the NT.
IIRC, the unforgivable sin is in all of the synoptic gospels, only John doesn’t bother with it. Depending on which sect is doing with their spin, I have learned that even blaspheming the Holy Ghost, isn’t such an unforgivable sin after all with some, while others it supposedly is. I believe some biblical texts are preferring to go with Holy Spirit now than Holy Ghost, I suppose, thinking that makes it less prone to ridicule.
Yes, and after Jesus says that, he goes and calls entire groups fools in Matthew and Luke. And of course, the Palmist slur calls all atheist fools, by saying, “thou fool has said in his heart ‘there is no God.’” But Paul has some amusing things to say about fool too. For Christians, he says, “We become fools for Christ’s sake.” And also that “it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”
Seems like an innocent enough question to be asking as a kid. Damn, tuff crowd.
I think for quiet a few of us, when we finally start to see it for what it really was/is, we go through a more militant stage at first, before settling in and mellowing out a bit more.
I actually have many fond memories of my church, and the people in it, but I was a quiet kid…then. I had doubts about all of it, but didn’t know enough about the bible or gods or anything else to get myself into too much trouble at the time, so I kept it to myself, and just smiled a lot. Otherwise, I may not have fared as well.
First off, I think Paul is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity…
As for the quote above, I wonder a) what “gospel” refers to when used at a time when what WE call “gospels” didn’t exist and b) if this does not suggest that the whole Crucifixion/Resurrection thing was unnecessary.
When Baptists say, “You must believe in/on Jesus” they usually clarify this as accepting Him as Savior, or some such. In the quote above, can you offer anything in the text that specifies what Jesus is suggesting must be believed? Given the historical context, I doubt that He meant “believes that I died and was resurrected to save mankind.” It would certainly be a cryptic way of communicating to the poor bastards he’s talking to, since they don’t know how the story ends.
As far as I know, prior to Paul various re-writings of the “Jesus teachings”, no one was suggesting that His ministry was for/about anything to do with non-Jews.
-VM
Thanks for all the extra context. It’s rare for me to care enough to actually crack a Bible and identify an exact cite. And way too long since I was forced to study the content.
As to your quote above…for me, it wasn’t a militant stance, it was a defensive one. The examples I gave were colorful examples of how religious dogma was “used on me” as a kid. For these adults, fear of Hell was seen as an appropriate disciplinary tool, and I guess it never occurred to them that I might take the idea seriously at that age.
Maybe it was the visible satisfaction that they gained from frightening children, but long before I was ready to question whether the Bible was worth listening to, I was already very ready to question the way snippets of it were being used to try to control me.
Over the years, it became a pattern: I pretty much never approach a Christian and challenge what they believe, but if they have the gall to approach me on the subject, well, they’re likely to get what I think they deserve.
-VM