You can’t admit to trolling in one paragraph, then immediately declare that it wasn’t trolling because you say so. You can’t Jedi mind trick your way out of it.
Good thing I didn’t admit to trolling, then. Or are we going to play the game of “I can redefine any word I want at any time I want just because I don’t like the point you were making”?
So you chose a word specifically to troll us, oh wait not to troll, but to prove a point.
How about this: nobody is asking that certain words be struck from usage. The same way in which the rule “don’t be a jerk” is moderated, we want “don’t be a misogynist” to be. That has literally nothing to do with any of the things you are pretending to be standing up for valiantly, like your right to call someone a pussy and use the word “hysteria”.
Do you have a link to those threads?
What do we gain from adding this rule?
If being a misogynist always means being a jerk, then we don’t gain anything and the rule is useless. If there are ways to be a misogynist and not be a jerk (under current interpretations), what are those ways?
Regards,
Shodan
The problem is that there isn’t always a clear line between between these behaviors. You can make a comment and really intend it as a joke and another person can perceive it as obnoxious and sexist while a third person thinks it’s funny, and all of it depends on where you’re coming from. It happens all the times on this site and probably on every other forum there is. This is why people have discussions about what’s normative and what isn’t. From a moderating perspective, we don’t want to allow casual prejudice that makes people uncomfortable about posting here and we don’t want anyone to be minimized or dismissed. I agree generally that I’d rather crack down on a couple of jerks than allow a lot of people (posting or just reading) to get discouraged and leave. We also don’t want to be so restrictive that people can’t have fun. I don’t want to just throw up my hands and say it’s all a wash, but there actually are two competing interests here. Insulting or belittling people based on gender (or race or ethnicity and so on) isn’t allowed and won’t be tolerated, but that doesn’t mean that everything that could be taken as an insult related to those things will get modded. As always, if you see something that you feel is a violation of the Don’t Be A Jerk rule, report it and the mods will look at it. It doesn’t have to break
another rule.
So I was right the first time and your complaint served no particular purpose. That’s not so good. I didn’t call the word offensive or say it was headed for a banned list; I said it was a poor choice of words for this conversation given what it means and given what you’d already said. You knew that and wanted to push some buttons, so congrats. You’re lucky not to be warned twice. I’m struggling to see the relevance in the larger conversation here because this isn’t really about individual terms.
The derivation of the word isn’t supposedly misogynistic. It’s misogynistic and demeans women. And you are probably right that most people don’t mean anything sexist when they say it (a lot of people use “hysterical” as a synonym for “hilarious”), but that doesn’t mean people are wrong to point out the historical use of the word because it can be relevant. A major portion of this issue relates to people’s assumptions and the things they communicate without intending to. Not that that applies to calling people pussies and then using hysterical just to “prove a point” by annoying people.
I doubt it.
You failed miserably and should stop trying to explain. Left Hand of Dorkness did not insult any other posters and you unambiguously did. Perhaps you should return to the general issue instead of trying to defend a remark that was clearly not appropriate.
Ask Dex, he seems to have no problem putting some misogynist comments into the category of light-hearted fun.
I suspect that the desired outcome is for all obviously misogynist comments to be included under “don’t be a jerk” so that such behaviour is effectively policed.
Because if misogyny were being moderated under “don’t be a jerk”, there wouldn’t be a problem. But it’s not.
Yes, because apparently, we need a naughty words list because many of us were raised in barns and don’t understand “don’t be a jerk”.
We have one. My point was it took a darn long time to get the naughty word that refers to women on it despite adding the ones that referred to other classes of people without controversy. Why should we treat women any different than gay people, or black people? But apparently, such a belief was controversial. Nigger and faggot are words used by jerks, but cunt, oh, that’s just fine, we don’t mean anything by that.
If we want a free for all site, lets drop all the rules and we can refer to each other using whatever inflammatory language we choose. If this isn’t the site we want, let’s be consistent in enforcing the “don’t be a jerk” rule regardless if its someone being a jerk over race, religion, gender, sexual preference, disability status, etc.
I hate that we need to have a naughty word list. People should realize that calling people certain words does make you a jerk.
I agree that there are competing interests, but effectively what’s happened is that the interest of female posters in not having a misogynist community is being subordinated to the interest of allowing a certain amount of offensive interaction.
Put a little differently, the grey zone where it’s a judgement call seems to lie on the side where misogynist comments are permitted, to protect posters like ibanez from being put in the position that akennet’s in now. I’d like to see the grey zone fall firmly on the head of the akennets and ibanezs, rather than the female posters who decide to leave the SDMB so they don’t have to grin and bear it. You’re doing what I think should be done; but frankly, Dexter’s comment about how one poster’s misogyny is another poster’s light-hearted fun just horrified me.
All of this is worth repeating again. Well said.
And while I realize this will probably be met with the usual “don’t let the door hitcha where the good lord splitcha” that such things are, several of the posters in this thread have been privately communicating with each other. . . many of us never having talked before. And it has come to the point where many are considering a break from the board after this. Regular posters who I often think contribute quite a bit to this board, people who I think would be deeply missed.
This isn’t three or four uppity women either. It’s seven at my last count. Then you have the posters in this thread who have already admitted to taking board breaks because of this nonsense.
Is calling someone a dick equally as bad/misandrist?
I would say that neither word, by itself, represents misogynystic/misandrist thinking.
But let me ask you. If the powers that be are willing to fix the sexist issues here, are you willing to continue posting with the racist issues remaining?
No. Just like calling someone a honky or cracker isn’t the same as calling someone a nigger. Words with equivalent denotations take on different connotations based on the relative positions of the people they describe.
Blech. It’s a good question. I’d say my timeouts have been pretty equally distributed between being grossed out by racists and grossed out by sexists. I think getting rid of either one would help my personal experience of the board, though finding someplace with people I like that didn’t have the issues of this board would be better.
Please don’t misquote me. I said that some comments can be classified one way by one person, and another way by another person. You may recall that “Good Morning” can be read as anything from a warm welcome to curt dismissal. (I once had someone get all huffed out because I said “thank you” meant sincerely, but they took it as sarcastic.)
It’s not like everytime the word “honey” is used, it’s misogynism.* Some people are extremely sensitive (even overly sensitive) to various aspects of political correctness; and some people are completely insensitive (even boorish) about ditto. All I’m saying is: there’s no easy line to be drawn. We’ll moderate on a one-by-one basis. You report something, we’ll consider it.
*There’s a huge discussion about apiaries in a couple of threads, for instance.
There’s been at least one poster, and possibly more than one, who repeatedly said “women don’t know what they want” and stated that therefore it’s OK to ignore what a woman says and go ahead and do what you want…if you’re a man, that is.
A few points:
1 - My post was a calm and reasonable point that the term misogyny seemed to be an extreme term when insensitive seemed more appropriate (in all but rare cases). You seem to think that any argument about whether that term is appropriate is simply off limits. Why? I think it’s a valid point.
2 - You are so upset with me questioning the use of that word that you’ve called me a “pathalogical pedant”. When I made my point, I didn’t call anyone names, I just politely stated my opinion. Can’t you do the same?
3 - You state that everyone knows why homophobes and racists engage in that behavior: actually, I seriously doubt everyone does know, furthermore I guarantee you there are multiple reasons for those types of behaviors.
4 - You wonder why I’m engaging in some behavior, but you don’t make it clear what the behavior is. You seem to be implying my behavior is misogynystic, can you please provide an example?
Like jsgoddess, remediating even one of the two would make this board a vastly better place. But to answer your question directly: no, I wouldn’t continue posting in that scenario. If the “don’t be a jerk” rule is ignored to the point that the board is hostile toward a particular group and causing me more grief than please to read, I’d take a break the, too. It’s not just the misogyny issue.
First, I appreciate your responding to akennett’s behavior. It was a pleasant surprise.
Second, I’m not sure I agree that the lack of a clear line is a problem. I don’t expect there to be a clear line; I know there’s a gray area. The beauty of the “don’t be a jerk” rule is that it allows for gray areas, and people that step into them should have no expectation of remaining on the board. As hansel beautifully puts it, right now the gray area is too often resolved in favor of misogynists and racists. I’d really like for that to change; that’s what I’m asking for.
What’s awesome is that, having played the “what’s the word really mean?” hijack, now you’re playing the “Why are you quashing free speech?” hijack COUPLED WITH the “I’m just being calm and you’re all freaked out!” hijack. That’s like the trifecta of distractions! Not gonna play, dude.
Wrong. I called you a pathological pedant. 