My humble suggestion at fixing the misogyny stuff.

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1

Real simple. Since this is an issue affecting mostly women (I know it pisses off the decent guys too). I’d like to suggest that we get together a panel of women only, wherein they can put their heads together and come up with some guidelines WRT all things sexism.

The problem I’m seeing is the Mods are basically: “Well, what do you want us to do?”. If we had some guidelines that the Mods could point to when moderating an offensive poster, that would give them something better to work with than the “DBAJ-rule”.

Just an example of some of the rules that could be added:

No speculating on what you think “really” happened to an alleged victim. (You can say you don’t believe her story, but it should end there. None of this “Well maybe the attacker was just covering her mouth as to not bother the other guests” crap.

No talk of she deserved it.

No talk of she should of known better…

Etc…

Anyway, maybe ITD would be willing to lead a group interested in such a discussion.

Bottom line is: Ain’t nothing going to change until we make some changes to the SDMB policy guidelines. And I think it’s appropriate that the women be the ones to make these changes to make this board more enjoyable for all members.

2

I see it as an issue that affects everyone.

3

Seems to me that if you can call such a group together, the participants will be able to speak more effectively and will perhaps feel less ignored.

I agree that it is an issue that affects us all, but the amelioration of the situation lies with giving a stronger voice to the women*.

  • Yeah I know. For purposes of this situation I don’t count as.
4

It is not my impression that the mods like bright-line rules.

That having been said, if, as susan says, it affects everyone, then the suggestion that the discussion be limited to a minority of members, like women, or women + “decent guys”, seems counter-productive.

These don’t seem to me to be good rules to foster much discussion, especially the one where no one can say what they think “really” happened.

See the “Lying Whore” thread of several years ago. What “really” happened there was a heavily drunk stripper promulgated a false rape allegation against some lacrosse players, aided and abetted by a crooked DA with an election coming up. As the evidence that this was so emerged, a rule preventing the Dope from discussing it would tend to shut down discussion. And I thought discussion was what the Dope is for.

In the massive and ongoing Kavanaugh confirmation thread, it is to me pretty obvious what is “really” happening, on the part of Democrats if not the accuser(s), is that they want to stall until the mid-term elections. It is possible that Avenatti, and perhaps even the accuser, has the same motivation, in part at least. I hope the rule would not require us to ignore the elephant in that particular room.

If you want an example of a rule that might be considered in such cases, how about making it verboten to mention what the alleged victim was wearing as a reason for the rape? Including, and this is IMO important, not ascribing that to anyone else unless they actually say it. Although, come to think of it, that might fall afoul of a previous, also very long thread, about some woman with no pants on and her pubic hair shaved into a cross (and wearing a Pope hat) who was made the subject of some jokes on the Dope. I am not sure if the rules as explained in that thread are in place, or not. “Not” is my impression, although I could be wrong.

Regards,
Shodan

5

I don’t think a List Of Things You’re Not Allowed To Say is the solution. It goes too far in some ways, and not far enough in others.

6

Are there that few “decent guys” here that women+decent guys= a minority?

:frowning:

7

And who decides which guys are “decent”?

I’d suggest leaving it to the women to come up with suggestions, if that’s feasible, and then open that list to general discussion. It will be a long and rancorous process, but an open discussion of suggested solutions might lead to something solid.

And I think the suggestions and discussion should be wider than just rape-related subjects.

8

Depends on how you define “decent”. Women are AFAICT a minority.

If you, or Grrr! want to clarify, please go ahead.

Regards,
Shodan

9

Wait, are you seriously putting the onus on women here?

I have a a humble suggestion for fixing the misogyny - ban the misogynists. Done and dusted.

10

  1. I don’t see any practical way of litmus-testing the “decent guys”

  2. Even if there were, it still seems useful to FIRST hear what the women wish to say. “Decent guys” are not people who are having the same experience as the women.

11

This was one of the original suggestions: “we get together a panel of women only, wherein they can put their heads together and come up with some guidelines WRT all things sexism”

Is that putting the onus on women?

12

Hey, did you all see that guy just punched me in the face?

Aw dang, that sucks, here, sit on this panel and come up with a guideline on how close fists can be to your face.

13

I think that whatever rules they establish, there are clearly dopers here who delight in misogyny and who will enjoy finding ways around the rules or dancing right up to any lines that are drawn. Then, there is a whole other layer of dopers who are just oblivious to the sexism and rape culture of the dope. I include myself in that group as it’s only recently that I started to examine my own beliefs. What needs to change aren’t the rules, but the culture.

I think the tactic that is most likely to be effective is for dopers just to decide that enough is enough and to call it out in every thread every time it appears. It will be exhausting and you will get lots and lots of push back, shouting down and abandonment by so called allies when to poster being called out is a popular one. The dope tolerates bullying and trolling when the person doing it has been doing it for a long time and it is only very recently that sexism and rape as a punchline have even been questioned as possibly problematic. There will be huge pushback from a lot of the entrenched posters who see themselves as the keeper of the dope, but that’s what changing a culture takes.

There’s a good chance it won’t work and if so, this place will continue its decline and eventually die off. To be honest, I was starting to think that maybe we should let it die and let the same circle of old sexists make their tired old jokes to each other, but I like the dope. I have a lot of fond memories of my time here and why should the worst of us get to win?

14

Yes, apply the rule “Don’t Be A Jerk”.

15

I believe looking to the mods to solve or mod this is an utter fool’s endeavour. I mean how many times can they say, “Well what can we do?” It sucks, but it’s true, they can’t handle this.

And it sucks that it falls to the women to try and fix this shit, both unacceptable and unvoidable in my opinion.

What we need is solidarity. If the women of this board, when happening upon blatant misogyny were to refuse to participate we might begin to make an impact. When you see it just flounce on out of that thread. Oh, and announce it, “Female, now exiting thread!” Who knows, it might inspire like minded men to react by doing likewise, in an “I’m with her!”, kinda way.

Of course it might do nothing more that make us FEEL more empowered. Or, maybe, it will serve to wake up the mods. Or, maybe it could make us feel less alone by virtue of the occasional male voice joining in. But if it worked it might just shut some of that shit down in it’s tracks. I think any of these could count as a victory.

Y’know, as opposed to the usual, we talk, they listen, and not much changes.

Anyway, it’s just a suggestion.

16

You can’t separate the rules and the “culture” like that and the fact is, it’s called out plenty already. But the calling out generally just ends up a long winded sidetrack that will inevitably be repeated in some other thread, probably by the same posters. If we care about having less misogyny on the boards and retain more female members, rules have to be put down. The “No men coming into bra threads to make boob jokes/flirt comments” rule was a positive move and calling people out on it was not working.

17

No, I didn’t see that. I saw some posts on a messageboard. Do you want to discuss that?

Regards,
Shodan

18

I hear what you’re saying, but I think that way just cedes the dope to the creeps. What I’m suggesting in my post a couple above yours is the opposite, instead of abandoning the thread, engage and push back. Maybe pm other dopers to come in and join the fight.

19

I’m sorry, but I strongly disagree. That’s been tried, repeatedly, without success. It’s just feeding the trolls, at its core.

So yeah, maybe women flouncing out of threads won’t make much of a difference, but if like minded men were to join it, maybe people would at least notice it more. Maybe it would motivate those in power to act. I don’t think they need rules so much as motivation.

20

But ceding the dope to the creeps is the entirely rational thing to do absent rule changes. This isn’t a country. It takes zero effort to choose a better community on the internet and move there. It is pretty unreasonable to expect women to tough it out for years running a social awareness campaign with no backing from the people running the board.