Misogyny, victim-blaming, and the board culture (yet again)

[SamuelA]

@Ulfreida

Misogyny, like racism, does not have to be conscious to be damaging, in fact it works best if the perpetrators feel both virtuous and innocent. Threads dealing with misogyny seem to invariably devolve into futile arguing with misogynist men who firmly believe that their beliefs are logical and sound and rational, and certainly not held because they are men, or because they instinctively hold onto their superiority as a class, and because they have never experienced misogyny themselves nor can imagine it in the slightest way. They are never convinced.

So your goal here is to egg the moderators (who I suspect are all older men) to start sanctioning people for reasonable, logical arguments because they make you feel bad. And there is no way for the people making the arguments to know ahead of time whether that specific post is breaking the rules. Since in your own admission misogynist men won’t even know they are doing it.

What do you propose? One key element of any legal system of rules is you cannot fairly hold someone accountable for something they had no way to know ahead of time they were doing wrong.

Is why I was so annoyed at a recent moderation because it wasn’t apparently rule breaking at the time I made the post.

[Babale]

@SamuelA

So your goal here is to egg the moderators (who I suspect are all older men) to start sanctioning people for reasonable, logical arguments because they make you feel bad. And there is no way for the people making the arguments to know ahead of time whether that specific post is breaking the rules. Since in your own admission misogynist men won’t even know they are doing it.

Your arguments are neither reasonable mor logical.

[HurricaneDitka]

@iiandyiiii

It’s pretty simple – I propose moderators sanction misogynistic and victim-blaming posts (regarding victims/survivors of sexual assault/rape/etc.). Whether they’re sincere, in “good faith”, out of ignorance, malicious, or otherwise.

I thought that was already the policy. And I thought the moderators had a pretty good handle on what is “misogyny”. I’m no longer confident that’s the case. Possibly it’s because of the moderation staff turnover, or maybe it’s due to something else. I hope the staff will reconsider their evaluation of this issue. I believe that toleration of the kind of post referenced in the OP could do significant long-term damage to the board.

If, in the midst of the Duke lacrosse rape hoax, someone had posted something to the effect that “I think this is horseshit. I don’t think those young men raped anyone and I think the alleged victim here is a liar”, do you think they should be sanctioned for expressing such an opinion?

[Max_S]

@Ulfreida

If you asked that question about white people vs black people, you might see it from a useful perspective, although the situations are not exactly equivalent. In both cases, the white or male person is the one who must choose to do the work.

You may think that walking off is “so much the worse” for women. But it really isn’t. It’s so much the worse for men.

That’s part of the good faith element. If I’m arguing in good faith, I will consider the counterarguments. I might not agree with them but I will consider them. I will do some work to understand the opposing positions, not necessarily all of it, but I won’t just sit back and hand-wave away a sincere argument.

I mean, it’s not always possible to convince someone to change their mind. The differences may be axiomatic in nature, or beyond the scope of what the participants are willing to debate. That’s part of life. In that case though, the other position isn’t necessarily ignorant or even wrong - just built on a different set of assumptions.

I’m not saying this is the case with SamuelA or HurricaneDitka’s position re: Kavanaugh. I haven’t undertaken the debate necessary to reach that conclusion, and I’m not particularly want to do so.

~Max

[Max_S]

@Ulfreida

You may think that walking off is “so much the worse” for women. But it really isn’t. It’s so much the worse for men.

Let’s assume that under the current set of rules, the board will turn into an echo chamber of misogynists. That it is impossible to entertain unwitting misogynist arguments, made from ignorance but in good faith, without driving out everybody else and removing the capacity to address those arguments.

I also take it as a premise that it is impossible to fight ignorance without addressing it - entertaining the ignorant arguments.

Therefore, it is impossible to fight ignorance that takes the form of misogyny. Would you agree? I don’t.

~Max

[iiandyiiii]

@Max_S

Let’s assume that under the current set of rules, the board will turn into an echo chamber of misogynists. That it is impossible to entertain unwitting misogynist arguments, made from ignorance but in good faith, without driving out everybody else and removing the capacity to address those arguments.

I also take it as a premise that it is impossible to fight ignorance without addressing it - entertaining the ignorant arguments.

Therefore, it is impossible to fight ignorance that takes the form of misogyny. Would you agree? I don’t.

~Max

The board already sanctions hate speech for things like race, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc. Much of that is driven by ignorance.

[Max_S]

@iiandyiiii

The board already sanctions hate speech for things like race, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc. Much of that is driven by ignorance.

Hate speech by definition cannot be made in good faith. I don’t see the contradiction.

~Max

[Babale]

@Max_S

Hate speech by definition cannot be made in good faith. I don’t see the contradiction.

~Max

Of course it can, if you are a hateful person.

[Kobal2]

That’s a weird thing to say. If I really hated Albanians because something or someone had led me to the sincere belief that the reason everything in my life sucks is because of them damn, dirty, scheming Albanians with their dog-fucker genes ; and furthermore I sincerely thought everything about my life would go a lot better if all them Albanians were hanged from lamp posts… That’d obviously be cretinous of me, but I’d still yell “death to the 'banies !” in good faith.

[Max_S]

@Babale

Of course it can, if you are a hateful person.

No, I think you are mixing up good faith and sincerity. Sincerity is only one component of good faith, the “faith” part. The other component is that the action is done without any malice (hate). That’s the “good” part. So good faith requires both sincerity and the absence of malice. It is incompatible with hate speech.

ETA: You too, Kobal2.

~Max

[Helena330]

Why does this shit always happen just when I start to feel comfortable about posting here again?

[Shodan]

Which of the following statements are misogynistic and/or victim-blaming, and should be moderated?
[ul][li]I do not believe that Christine Ford’s allegation against Brett Kavanaugh is true. [/ul][/li][ul][li]I do not believe Christine Ford. [/ul][/li][ul][li]I do not automatically give greater weight to the accusation of a woman than the denial of a man [/ul][/li][ul][li]I do not automatically give greater weight to the denial of a man than the accusation of a woman[/ul][/li][ul][li]If Ms. Ford’s allegation is true, her actions are praiseworthy[/ul][/li][ul][li]If Ms. Ford’s allegations are false, her actions are not praiseworthy[/ul][/li][ul][li]That someone has been the subject of sexual harassment, abuse, or assault, does nothing to establish the truth or falsehood of any accusation of a different person[/ul][/li]
Regards,
Shodan

[Helena330]

@Bone

SamuelA - most of your posts in this thread are pretty objectionable, and go far beyond the statement that spawned this thread. Plus, you seem more interested in having a Ford/Kavanaugh discussion rather than one about the board or moderation. While that is the underlying subject of the comment in question, this isn’t the place to rehash that bit.

That’s it? Seriously? You’d rather lose a bunch of women posters so you can keep HIM? Message received.

[Bone]

@Helena330

That’s it? Seriously? You’d rather lose a bunch of women posters so you can keep HIM? Message received.

There have been multiple post reports in this thread. This isn’t my forum to moderate, and given most of the reports were received in in the last 5 hours which for me was when I was sleeping, I think letting the normal process proceed is appropriate.

[Amara_1]

@Helena330

That’s it? Seriously? You’d rather lose a bunch of women posters so you can keep HIM? Message received.

+1

[HurricaneDitka]

@Helena330

That’s it? Seriously? You’d rather lose a bunch of women posters so you can keep HIM? Message received.

IANAMod and don’t get to make any decisions over who stays and who has to go, but in another recent post, you said this:

@Helena330

Rather than trying to legislate other people’s behavior, why don’t you modify your own so you don’t give them reasons to say those things to you?

ISTM that there’s some application for those words of yours here as well.

[Babale]

@HurricaneDitka

IANAMod and don’t get to make any decisions over who stays and who has to go, but in another recent post, you said this:

ISTM that there’s some application for those words of yours here as well.

The only “behavior” she is guilty of that’s leading to posts like these is being a woman, you misogynistic creep.

[Max_S]

@HurricaneDitka

IANAMod and don’t get to make any decisions over who stays and who has to go, but in another recent post, you said this:

ISTM that there’s some application for those words of yours here as well.

That quote [DEL]doesn’t make sense[/DEL] is irrelevant in the context of this thread.

~Max

[HurricaneDitka]

@Max_S

That quote doesn’t make sense in the context of this thread.

~Max

You don’t see this thread, or at least various posts in it, as “trying to legislate other people’s behavior”?

[Babale]

@HurricaneDitka

You don’t see this thread, or at least various posts in it, as “trying to legislate other people’s behavior”?

What behavior, other than the simple act of being women, is provoking you into posting your hateful and misogynistic crap? What behavior can the women of this board change so that they’d no longer deserve your misogyny?