Btw, the vessel could be made from a shatterproof, acrylic. Shaped like an oxygen tank but big enough to hold a small sedated teen in the fetal position.
I’m sure there’s manufacturers in the international community that could custom mold three for a rescue. They’d know what material would work and how to make it buoyant.
It would take a few days to make it, test, and ship.
I’m wondering how they got so far back into the cave system in the first place.
And through some of the narrow passages.
Was everything dry when they entered the cave?
I’m sure there are good reasons they ended up where they did (not the least of which being “not underwater”).
Walking and crawling, presumably. Plenty of active cave systems are almost or entirely dry when it doesn’t rain and flooded in large parts when it does. In fact, rising water is arguably the biggest danger in spelunking, and nobody should enter a cave without 1) Knowing if it’s an active system or not 2) In case it is, checking weather forecasts (I understand that it was mentioned an the entrance of the cave that it was off limits during rain season, but that’s clearly not enough, and, as it proved to be in this case, dangerously misleading).
Plenty of caves are very accessible without equipment. I remember once, while spelunking, crossing the path of a young couple whose equipment were shorts, tee-shirts and a torchlight. It was perfectly feasible, although a very bad idea for a lot of reasons.
I think I read that one section is so tight, you can’t actually wear your SCUBA tank. So that would prevent any type of vessel.
Also, you would not want it buoyant. It would need to be neutrally buoyant, and thus weigh hundreds of pounds.
Those “big” oxygen tanks aren’t all that big; they look like they’re not much bigger than a standard SCUBA tank, maybe a smidge longer.
The maps I’ve seen point to passages in the cave that are so narrow that SCUBA tanks have to be removed from their backs to get through (see my video link upthread for an example of this kind of cave diving). Even assuming such a thing were available, there’s no way anything big enough to contain a pre-teen is going to get through those passages.
I’m puzzled by Broomstick’s question too - have been since I first heard how far back they were.
When you’re caving, it almost always seems like you’ve gone a lot further than you really have. IME from VA/WV caving in my younger days, few inexperienced cavers get anywhere near a mile from the entrance they came in at. Yet this group is 3.2 km (> 2 miles) into the cave. My mind’s boggled.
They didn’t ‘go’ so far back into the cave system, and through some very tight spots, so much as they were driven further back and into tighter spots by rapidly rising flood waters.
I think they’ve done it before. And if anyone can move fast, it would be a young soccer team. IMHO.
If it is only a max depth of 5 meters it changes the game.
The pictures of “oxygen tanks” released in reports such as this CNN one appear to be standard aluminum 80cu ft scuba cylinders. They do not have the standard markings for gas blends other than compressed air.
But they should be using high oxygen mixes if their maximum depth is only 5 meters, not because it is needed for safe diving but because it would slowly enrich the oxygen levels in the cave.
It appears that there is not sufficient air circulation from the outside so the oxygen concentration in the cave is slowly dropping. And if divers are exhaling after breathing from compressed air tanks then they are exhaling gas that is less than the normal 21% oxygen.
But if they only need to dive to a max depth of 5 meters then the divers could safely be using a mix with elevated levels of oxygen, up to about 80% oxygen even accounting for high work loads on the part of the diver. And any exhaled gas would add to the oxygen levels in the cave. It would be a small effect, but at this point every bit matters.
And it need not be so terribly dependent on infrastructure to fill the cylinders. There are membrane systems that could be used on portable generator powered system that could produce a 40% oxygen blend on site.
If they were to sedate the boys, rather than put them in a rigid vessel I was thinking of some kind of flexible sack. Or maybe no container, just strap their arms to their sides and their legs together so they’re easier to manuever but the rescuers would still have access to the boy’s oxygen supply in case they needed to fix a problem.
It would be more work for the rescuers to move a dead weight compared to the boys swimming out themselves, but it would eliminate the possibility of the boys panicking and killing themselves and the rescuers. Also, if a boy dies during the rescue, it would provide a merciful painless death rather than the horror of drowning while conscious.
Was from one of the articles I was reading that was quoting the provincial governor. It looks like what’s actually happened is they were building an oxygen pipeline into the chamber and those efforts failed. So they cut back the number of rescue personnel staying in the chamber from 10 to 5, and started ferrying pure O2 tanks into the chamber and the O2 level as of last night was at 17.5%; but with little prospect for long term viability.
It’s interesting/unfortunate that it seems like there’s so many conflicting reports coming out about all this–I can only guess the Thai government is trying to play some politics + the language barriers and the Western press all being anxious to report on it as much as possible due to its dramatic nature.
A British mining engineer who is at the site and spoke anonymously, says that there is essentially no chance at all the chamber the boys are in will remain unflooded for the duration of monsoon season. It makes sense, if you look at how much it rained to trap them in, versus how much it typically rains in the region over the next three months, it’s almost hard to imagine the cave doesn’t become fully flooded. It’s odd that all the early reports the Thai government was saying it was all no big deal and they could just chill out for four months if need be. Now it’s genuinely looking like if they aren’t out within the next four days, they won’t survive at all.
This is my understanding as well, initially they were basically playing in the caves, in parts of the cave that young Thai children in the region commonly do this in. The mistake they made was doing it too late in the year, their assumption likely was the big rains had not started yet and it was probably a clear day, so they thought they were safe. Then it started raining.
My understanding is that when they were done with their excursion they returned to the entrance chamber and found it submerged. Over the next few hours it sounds like they moved further and further back into the cave as water rose. Likely the ledge they were on is much, much further back in the cave than they normally play in, and involved going through narrow passages and tunnels that casual cavers in the region probably never traverse.
There’s apparently a local custom of signing your name at the “back wall” of the cave. If I had to guess, this back wall is FAR closer to the entrance of the cave than where they are now. Oft-times locals won’t have any clue how deep a cave system really is. That’s why Mammoth Cave in Kentucky has continually “grown” over the years, as they’ve linked it to other cave system sand more fully explored it. For many, many years locals to Mammoth Cave just wouldn’t go past certain points, because the caving was too treacherous or it just got too deep. I believe in the 19th century Mammoth Cave was mapped as having less than 75mi of total tunnels, in the 21st century that number is 400 miles.
I agree bringing them out sedated is the only option. The children aren’t physically capable of climbing and swimming for hours. I doubt they were fit enough before going into the cave. Seal divers are incredibly fit.
The route out would be partially blocked if an exhausted person collapsed. They’d be dead weight to move.
Some sort of bag or strapping has to be used to make the sedated person easier to move and transport.
It seems conceivable to me that the Thai authorities themselves could have faced a barrage of contradicting and ever changing assessments by experts.
Thank you. This was one of the most enlightening posts on the thread.
Not that I know anything about these issues, but I really have a hard time imagining how the rescuers could bring back to safety sedated persons in bags through flooded tunnels in such harsh conditions.
Although the truth is that I have a hard time imagining any method that would allow these kids to be rescued (apart from staying where they are, or at a spot close to where they are, if the water level doesn’t rise too high and even in this case, I doubt that the oxygen issue can be solved for months). Nothing else seems realistic to me and I now strongly doubt that they will survive., and even think that a number of other people are going to die along with them.
Rescue is going to be extremely challenging.
I’m cautiously optimistic a few can be saved. Maybe all.
They have to try. Leaving them behind to eventually drown isn’t an option.
I can surmise that the 100+ chimney holes dug to date pretty much indicate a sense of desperation. Ignorance fought for me: I had thought that in 2018, digging down to a known cavity even a few km deep in rock was a routine engineering feat, requiring only equipment and time. Then again, maybe it’s a wholly different game when you can poke around and write off any cave collapse your digging may cause – that is, when no human live are on the line.
I wonder what the “Eff it – it’s now or never!” rescue attempt is going to look like? Can there be an “eff it” dig from above where they know there’s a 3 in 4 chance of collapsing the cavern, but something must be done?
Elon Musk tweeted 40 mins ago.
He employs some of the best engineers. They can find a viable solution. That’s assuming time doesn’t run out first. I’m glad they are there and assisting.
Especially since the other options aren’t very good.
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) Tweeted:
Got more great feedback from Thailand. Primary path is basically a tiny, kid-size submarine using the liquid oxygen transfer tube of Falcon rocket as hull. Light enough to be carried by 2 divers, small enough to get through narrow gaps. Extremely robust. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1015657378140704768?s=17
Things are moving quickly. They should be testing this in the cave within 25 or so hours.
Find out how well the divers can handle it. Make sure it’ll fit in the narrow areas.
Maybe there’s going to be a good outcome after all.
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) Tweeted:
@aiyanaskye Construction complete in about 8 hours, then 17 hour flight to Thailand https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1015666557458964480?s=17