Mitt Romney is a Socialist ComMormon!

[MPB_in_Salt_Lake]

@BrainGlutton

Well, I’d say the same was true for much of the white South through the end of the '50s at least. That is, they were taught things like that in Sunday school or by other quasiofficial channels.

Not surprising in the least, but I can only speak to the things that I was personally taught, growing up as a Mormon kid in the 1970’s…

(I am 41)

[gamerunknown]

That is, they were taught things like that in Sunday school or by other quasiofficial channels.

Gobineau/Curse of Ham? Still doesn’t compare to Lamanites in my opinion, since that was expressedly based on skin colour (though the LDS has less wide grasp and the concept of racial purity has probably claimed a higher toll).

[BrainGlutton]

Well, I’ve seen people criticize the “continuing revelation” thing, but I appreciate a church that’s always willing to reconsider and update its doctrines. So the Mormons don’t have to be stuck forever with the old racial doctrines, etc.

[RMac]

Having grown up in a Mormon dominated town as a non-Mormon I understand religious repression. We were told by our counselor during a mens assembly to volunteer for our missions right away since the Vietnam War was winding down and that way we would avoid being drafted. Discrimination was unbelievable especially against blacks. But I don’t in any way think that it would have been any different if I was a Mormon in an all Lutheran town in Minnesota or Roman Catholic in certain places in the south at that time either.

Religious discrimination and hatred in America is worse than racial hatred now. Atheist are actually more hated in this country than Muslims. I for one know a lot of Atheists and Agnostics and they are for the most part the most honest, decent and respectable people I know. Most of them were officer in the military. So are all, yes all the Muslims I’ve met, most of them in the service as well.

Defining people by their belief in magical thinking is dangerous since so many believe or feel the need to express belief in one form or another just to survive in this society or in a family. Over 50,000,000 Americans express that they have no religious preference of any sort what so ever. Before worrying about the very small minority of Mormons in this country and whatever conspiracy you may have about them give some consideration to the freethinkers in this land.

[RMac]

@Crane

Monty,

Please correct my ‘errors’ or withdraw (and apologize for) your insulting comments.

Brigham Young is one of the greatest economists of the 19th century. He is the only one who created and managed a real economy for over 40 years. He applied the principle of ‘from each according to ability and to each according to need’ before Marx hypothesized it and he implemented Keynesian strategies long before Keynes was born. As President of the LDS organization, his path was revealed to him by God.

So, are these principles still extant within LDS? Does Romney ascribe to, or reject, the principles of a founder of his religion .
Crane

I’m sorry but 1847 is not pre-Marx and saying someones “path was revealed to him by God” is a matter of faith and not even a matter of opinion. i understand your first comment and being insulted has no place in a discussion. But points of faith have no place in a discussion of history either. Something is either a quantifiable fact or it isn’t. Marx made that famous comment about being condemned to repeat history if you don’t learn from it. Well the only way you can learn from it is by having the truth and too often the winners write down myths and untruths. Myths such as the bombing campaign won the First Gulf War when it did not. These myths can lead to dangerous problems.

[BrainGlutton]

@RMac

Myths such as the bombing campaign won the First Gulf War when it did not.

What did?

[Monty]

@RMac

being insulted has no place in a discussion.

I did not insult Crane. Got it?

[Measure_for_Measure]

Hello RMac and welcome to the straight dope message board!

In Great Debates and Elections, personal insults are not allowed: Monte was careful to attack the argument and not the debater. Now he used strong language. Setting aside the rules of this board, was that appropriate?

I think it was acceptable. You don’t answer loaded questions about your faith, especially those with ulterior motives. If Monte tried to explain why Brigham Young wasn’t a socialist/Marxist/Smithist/Keynesian/Flat-Earther/Tellerist it would only give platform to silly beliefs. Seriously, there are times when it makes sense not to engage, and this is one of them.

More generally, I enjoy bashing the Mittster as much as the next guy. But I’m wary of collateral damage. My personal experience with the few LDS people that I’ve encountered has been fine-- better than fine in fact. I’m an agnostic, but I frankly have little problem with faith or people of faith. It’s fundamentalism that I dislike, the sort that places doctrine and detail ahead of compassion, empirical evidence and basic common sense. And while I’ve attacked Romney on this board multiple times, there are some fairly bright lines between Mitt and Rick, at least in terms of temperament if not in projected veto behavior.
That said, I’ve read a few troubling reports about some of the LDS forefathers. One character, anticipating Bill Ayers and Saul Alinsky, was a foreign anti-war socialist and community organizer who gave away health care and was ultimately convicted of disorderly conduct. I think his name was Jesus something.

[Crane]

Measure for Measure,

Thanks for the comments. However, there was no ‘ulterior motive’ in my post. Utah government under Brigham Young was a communitarian theocracy. The church was the government that parceled out property and totally controlled the economy. This is not a negative value judgement. I believe Young was one of the most brilliant of the builders of our nation.

The communitarian nature of 19th century Utah is well documented by LDS historians (ie Great Basin Kingdom, economic history of the Latter Day Saints 1830-1900, Arrington). It is the LDS position that their President is a Prophet and Revelator, not mine.

The primary issue of Edmunds-Tucker was to bring the economy of Utah in line with the capitalist system of the United States in order to make statehood possible.

So, that brings us to the question I posed. Romney is a product of LDS culture. Does Romney view the economic system put in place by Brigham Young as emanating from God? Romney may be in a position to influence US economic policy so the issue is relevant.

BTW: No guy named Jesus ever ran for President of the United States.
Crane

[Dogzilla]

@RMac

Having grown up in a Mormon dominated town as a non-Mormon I understand religious repression. We were told by our counselor during a mens assembly to volunteer for our missions right away since the Vietnam War was winding down and that way we would avoid being drafted. Discrimination was unbelievable especially against blacks. But I don’t in any way think that it would have been any different if I was a Mormon in an all Lutheran town in Minnesota or Roman Catholic in certain places in the south at that time either.

Religious discrimination and hatred in America is worse than racial hatred now. Atheist are actually more hated in this country than Muslims. I for one know a lot of Atheists and Agnostics and they are for the most part the most honest, decent and respectable people I know. Most of them were officer in the military. So are all, yes all the Muslims I’ve met, most of them in the service as well.

Defining people by their belief in magical thinking is dangerous since so many believe or feel the need to express belief in one form or another just to survive in this society or in a family. Over 50,000,000 Americans express that they have no religious preference of any sort what so ever. Before worrying about the very small minority of Mormons in this country and whatever conspiracy you may have about them give some consideration to the freethinkers in this land.

This actually made me feel a lot better about my concerns. Thank you for posting this.