Modern Latin coinages

Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, Iustinus, glad to have you here. Latin scholars are always welcome!

The reason you can’t edit your own post is that we have blocked that feature, for everyone. We have some forums (like Great Debates) where it would be inadvisable to let people change what they said in the past. If you make a typo that is so egregious that you want it corrected, just email a Moderator and they’ll (usually) be glad to help you.

So, welcome, and we look forward to more posts from you!

Just wondering if andygirl has found out why the word for Pope means “bridgemaker”. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that alot of Catholics see the Pope as a sort of “bridge” between God and the church?

“Mappa (“napkin”) which is the source of the English word “map” may be of Punic (Carthaginian) origin.”

I don’t know if it’s related, but the Hebrew word for “tablecloth” is “Mappah” - there is a code of Jewish law whose name translates to “the Set Table,” and one of the commentaries on it is the Mappah.

If the Latin word is really derived from the Punic (that etymology is somewhat speculative), it could be related to the Hebrew word. Punic was a dialect of Phoenician, which was a Middle Semitic (Canaanite) language closely related to Hebrew.

Personally, I find the Vatican approach a bit ridiculous. The Latin for “vodka” should just be uodca, “television” should be teleuisor, etc. Of course the “Modern Latin” used by biologists to name new species is very, um, borrow-happy, even to the point of absurdity, but you don’t have to go the other way & ignore the normal linguistic process of word-borrowing.

But then, isn’t the real Modern Latin Spanish & Italian? :wink:

Oh, & I’ve got to say welcome to Charlibaltimore.

I want a good quote from The Long Kiss Goodnight but “Life is pain,” seems like a crappy way to welcome someone.

Thank you for the welcome, foolsguinea! I believe my favorite quote from “The Long Kiss Goodnight” is when Samantha asks Hennessey, “What, are you a mormon?” To which he replies something like, “Yeah, I’m a mormon. That’s why I just drank three vodka tonics and smoked a pack of Newports.”

And speaking of vodka…since the “v” in Latin is pronounced as a “w” anyway, “vodka” and “televisor” could be spelled with the “v” and still be pronounced as you wrote them above!

I must agree with you on the “real” Modern Latin languages being Spanish and Italian. I can’t quite grasp the concept of Egger’s trying to resurrect a dead language…

<< Personally, I find the Vatican approach a bit ridiculous. The Latin for “vodka” should just be uodca, “television” should be teleuisor, etc. >>

Official French has a similar problem, in refusing to accept English words for new devises, and thus coming up with French equivalents. Common usage French tends to just take the English word and pronounce in French.

So, welcome Charli and barak… Hmmm… I wonder why a thread on Latin attracts so many new posters? In any case, glad to have you with us, hope that you take a look around and become a “regular.”

“Uodca” would probably just be a first-declension word, genitive “uodcae”, but how would “televisor” be declined? Third, I’d guess, since that’s where most of the irregulars seem to end up, but with what genitive root? And what gender is it?

Well, Egger is doing it because Latin is still the official language of the Church. A more general reason to do it is to maintain a link to the past that isn’t sufficiently maintained by just reading the classics. There are many other reasons, but I’ll let others (o Iustine) pipe up with them.

cnoocy
http://www.suberic.net/~marc/poesislatina.html

I’m not sure I believe that thinking up new “latin” words can help maintain a link with the past. I believe latin itself is a link with the past–from it we can not only learn where many words of today came from, but also a history of how they came to have their meanings.
The word “Arachnid” for example, comes from Arachne, a weaver in classical mythology who denied being taught to weave by Pallas. When Pallas discovered this, she turned her into a spider so she could weave forever. There are, of course, many other examples of words deriving from classical mythology.
As far as the Latin being the official language of the Church, has the Church really changed that much to need modern words? (With the exception of the Pope coming up with a latin word for “helicopter”. Not to argue with the Pope, but I would think God would’ve understood if he would have said the word in his native tongue.)

Making new words isn’t an end in itself, it’s part of keeping the language alive, as is speaking it, and writing it. It’s also necessary to use it as a common language. I’ve had long discussions in Latin on a variety of topics with people whose Latin was much stronger than their English. This is also an issue (I assume, I’m not even a Catholic) with the Church. God may know the Polish for helicopter, ice cream, or beeper, but not every priest who needs to communicate with any other priest will. Not that all priests speak fluent Latin, but still…

Believe it or not, I can’t speak to much of this part of the thread. Why speak Latin? Myself, I do it for fun.

But it is a mistake to attribute the practice of coining neologisms for modern phenomena to lonely people who cannot accept that Latin is a dead language, or who just have too much time on their hands. Latin composition about contemporary life was pretty common until quite recently. It is not that Latin was a “read only” language for 1500 year until Carolus Egger came along and started new coinages, it is more that Latin composition nearly died out in the 20th century… and only now has become the province of fanatics like myself. Unfortunately the 20th century is exactly when the need for new coinages increased sharply, making the job a lot harder for people who want to comple useful modern dictionaries.

But there are good reasons to learn to speak and compose in a dead language. I find it so much easier to learn a language when I’m using it actively, for instance. Futhermore it is much more pleasant.

There was the mention above of using Greek roots rather than Latin for new coinages. The reason for this is that Latin was not really very fond of compound words, whereas Greek was practically synthetomanic… er… I mean obsessed with compounds. Thus, when you need a new word for a machine that caries sounds over a distance you call it a “telephone” not a *longisone vel sim. The problem is that as time has gone on and classical education has become rarer and rarer, people have forgotten which roots are Greek and which are Latin… and even when they know, they don’t seem to have any objection to mixing them. This produces forms like television, automobile, homosexual and so on. That’s all well and good for English, but if you know your classical languages it sounds aweful for Latin. Whereas *ipsemobilis is a ridiculous Latin word (I don’t think you will find any words compounded with ipse- but feel free to prove me wrong) autocinetum is a perfectly logical Greek form… and in fact the modern greek word for car just happens to be autokineton! (I should mention though, that it’s now pronounced aftokineto)

Some other notes on modern coinings- if you want to say vodca say vodca. I won’t stop you, though some might. Again, “potio slavica” is a bit silly, but not as bad as it sounds- if you say it to a bartender she’ll know what you mean… well, if she speaks Latin. And if you find a bartender who speaks Latin, please invite me to go clubbing with you. But back to vodca- Classical Latin did indeed pronounce v as our w, but many Modern Latinists use the Church pronunciation, which pronoucnes it as our v. That point is moot here though, as many Slavic languages (e.g. Russian) will pronounce the word that way too. As for televisor, some people do say that, but it makes me cringe, in part because of the mixing of roots, and in part because the -tor/-sor suffix is normally used for (masculine) human agents, and not for machines. There is more I could say about that issue, but it’s borring, so I’ll get to the point- Neo-Latinists will often say “televisorium” to get past that particular problem. (There is also a -trum suffix used in Classical Latin for machines, but it was really quite rare, so it irks me when moderners overuse it for all these newfangled machines we have these days)

Arachne, by the way, was the Greek word for spider before it was the name of the mythological character. Well, not according to the myth itself, but I’m hardly a fundimentalist when it comes to Greek religion :wink:

And as it has already been mentioned, pontifex was a pagan Roman title long before it was borrowed by Christianity. The pope does not make bridges, but early Roman priests apparently did.

Punic was almost identical to Hebrew, and by the way I’m posting (against my will) from a *(&^y web tv unit, so I can’t even edit BEFORE I post this time!

Justin

A web TV unit! How horrible!

Point taken on the Latin stems with Greek prefices. I just chose televisor because it’s the Spanish.

How do you say “Web TV” in Latin? Telae telehorasis perhaps?

“Ipsilateral” is the only English word I know of that fits the bill.

Ipse-daisy?

Again, “potio slavica” is a bit silly, but not as bad as it sounds- if you say it to a bartender she’ll know what you mean… well, if she speaks Latin.

Sorry, what I meant to say was that if you say “da mihi slavicam” the bar tender will probably know that you mean “give me a vodka” rather than “give me a slavic woman.”

As for what one should call WebTV… telehorasis telica might work (though it may be just a little too alliterative!), though it would refer to the concept rather than a specific unit. Note that where English uses two nouns in apposition, Latin often uses an adjective rather than a genitive, hence “Martiniana mixtura” rather than “Martinii mixtura.”

Tela totius terrae?

(same acronym as in Esperanto - la Tut-Tera Teksajho.)

If anyone is still out there wondering, the website for Melissa is http://www.melissa.int.ms (or http://membres.lycos.fr/melissalatina). For their dictionary, Calepinus Novus, see http://membres.lycos.fr/melissalatina/libri/libri.htm .