Is molesting children always wrong? I remember hearing about a tribe in the South Pacific (?) that performed oral sex on babies to calm them while they were upset and crying.
Yes, molesting children is always wrong!! I’m sure you don’t have a cite for that tribe in the South Pacific, since you don’t even seem sure that it was the South Pacific. Even if it’s true, though, it’s irrelevant. There are plenty of places in the world where it’s perfectly acceptable to cut off a girls’ clitoris to keep her from being promiscuous; the fact that it’s accepted in other cultures doesn’t make it right. FWIW, I’ve managed to get three kids through infancy without molesting a single one of them; amazingly enough, they seem calmed by giving them what they need, like food, warmth, or to be held.
Well as far as consensual sex is preffered YES !
Even if kids would “benefit” somehow… they arent willing partners and will most likely be abused somehow. If they actually enjoy it or not is irrelevant… at some time they wont have a choice.
So keep away from children Homer and get a nice woman to satisfy your cravings like everyone else does.Rashak, please don’t assume and accuse. Homer asked a question. Beyond that there’s nothing else suggested.
And, yes, it is always wrong.
By the way Rashak, I realize you were probably kidding, it’s just that I think it’s a very sensitive issue.
Doesn’t the term “molestation” refer to unwelcome advances? Wouldn’t it be, then, by definition, wrong?
You might as well ask “Would a blue sky always be blue?”
Actually, the question of “Is a certain act always wrong when there are cultures that have incorporated it into their institutions?” is valid to ask, although it looks like Homer may have chosen a deliberatly provocative example. The question is valid specifically because of the popularity of extreme cultural relativism in some intellectual circles. If the answer to the question is “Yes, that act is always wrong.”, then the person giving the answer must admit there are limits to cultural relativism. If the answer is “No, that act is not wrong in that culture.”, then the person is in the position of giving a defense, however restricted, to a reprehensible activity.
> I remember hearing about a tribe in the South Pacific (?) that performed oral sex on babies to calm them while they were upset and crying.
Maybe something from Margaret Mead? She wrote about women, children and gender roles in the south pacific (Samoa & New Guinea) and had some very provocative thoughts – though most have since been repudiated.
Rune
By the standards of our culture and its dominant ethical systems, it is always wrong to molest anyone, i.e., to have sexual relations with them without their informed adult consent. That means persons who have refused consent, and it means people like children and developmentally disabled people of any age who are incapable of giving informed adult consent. It means people who are sufficiently intoxicated as to temporarily be unable to give or refuse informed consent.
The question gets stickier with adolescents, who are possessed of a sex drive but do not yet have a mature outlook on their sexuality.
I suppose it would theoretically be possible for a supergenius prepubescent child of emotional maturity way beyond his/her years to be able to give informed adult consent to sex with a pedophile attacted to him/her (supposing he/she wanted that sexual relationship, which I’d suspect to be highly improbable), but it’s one of those so-improbable-it-doesn’t-bear-discussing ideas. In any other case, it would be unethical molestation.
Also, note that because an act generally has sexual connotations in a sexual relationship does not mean that it will always have those connotations. When Jordan has trouble sleeping, either his mother or I gives him a thorough back massage to relax him and make him sleepy – the same massage I give Barb or she gives his father as an erotic one. With him, hyper little 7-year-old that he is, it’s a soporific, a sensual relaxing gesture. I’d venture to guess that if one of Homer’s tribe logged on, they’d suggest that their use of fellatio or cunnilingus (Homer didn’t specify) was not a sexual act in that context but merely a calmative.
Even if someone was to put a gun to your head and say molest your kid or i’ll kill him, it’s still wrong, it’s just less wrong than letting your kid die.
In human sexuality class we learned of a tribe that the younger adolecent males gave oral to the older adolecent males because they thought if they drank their manness they’d become strong warriors, or something. there was also apparently no homosexuals in that tribe, which was unique. Unfortunatly my notes are in Illinois and i’m not about to search for any of this at work, so i’ll have to stick with my memory.
In some crazy cultural context it might be “right” as the greeks were in relation to younger males being “guided” by older guys. Those were teens thou and we have nothing similar in western civilization now.
I didnt seriously mean to accuse Homer… just implying deviously. Thou the comment is valid for pedophiles.
Molestion has a negative impact based on the sexual act, which I assume is the actual deed asked in the OP. If a child is negatively affected by the actions of an adult, the the deed ia always wrong.
Based on cultural definitions of right and wrong, if a child is made to feel abused, exploited, degraded or humiliated by actions made by an adult then it was definitely wrong.
However if cultural definitions allow a child to be married to an adult, have sexual relations at an age that certain other cultures might deem too young no one in that culture thinks anything of it, then there is no molestation.
Afterall, if your life expectancy is only 30, then 13 is an adults age. If everyone treated teenagers as adults, they would act like adults and have adult rights as well as the responsibilities and obligations.
This is a very poorly phrased debate, but cultural/sexual differences are indeed worthy of consideration albeit not in the way lined out in this thread.
Here’s a link to Tars Tarkas’s rememberance.
http://icarus.ubetc.buffalo.edu/users/apy106/cultures/sambia.html
A very interesting view on sexuality to say the least. The children apparently develop into happy adults who actually may be less sex obsessed than many westerners. It’s odd how sexual orientation in that culture seems to progress through stages like a salmon adapting from fresh to salt water. A lot to chew on really.
A properly phrased debate might actually shed some light on how little we really know about sexuality. Oh well, I haven’t the time to start one.
Molesting children by definition is wrong so its a poorly phrased subject.
Germaine Greer mentions the culture with oral sex performed on babies to calm them in “Sex and Destiny” although she describes it as mothers took their infants penises in their mouthes to stop them crying so “performing oral sex” is perhaps an overstatement. Its unlikely the culture in question, which is in southern Europe not the Pacific, viewed the act as oral sex or sexual at all, most likely they see it as akin to a backrub or tickling. Different cultures have different understandings of intimacy and where and how it is appropriate to touch someone.
Looking at the link in errata’s post:
No matter how hard I try to see the ‘it’s their culture’ side of it, I’m really bothered by the fact that those who are reluctant are beaten until they submit.
So, is slavery always wrong? What evidence is there that “consent” is not also merely a “cultural construction”? Likewise, can it be demonstrated that any sort if inherent value for consent is not merely a “cultural construction”? If it is not a “cultural construction”, does that not mean that cultural relativism thus is nowhere near as universal as its adherents would like to claim?
catsix, I’m not supporting it, but in many cultures children are beaten for not mowing the lawns etc
Yeah, well, I don’t think ‘beat them however hard and long it takes’ is acceptable.
If that makes me less friendly to the ‘multi-cultural’ world, so be it, but IMO, beating someone until they cave and perform a sex act or are overpowered into having one performed on them has a one word name.
Rape.
Taking into account what different cultures do is one thing, if you’re talking about whether to bow to, shake hands, or kiss someone in greeting.
It’s a whole different ballgame when you get into rape, child molestation, assault. Then it becomes moral relativism.
Nowhere in that link does it say that they were "
beaten until they submit". It does say the boys are threatened with punishments, but not that this punishment is meeted out mercilessly until they submit which is how you’ve portrayed it.
It isn’t seen as a sex act per se in their culture but a duty that must be performed to achieve adulthood. Here’s the section that was probably referenced:
“At first, the older partner demands the fellatio, or older boys tell younger boys to find someone to fellate or they’ll get beaten up… Later, juniors regular initiate fellatio. Juniors are reluctant at first, eventually becoming used to it, H. reports. They are motivated by fear of punishment, but they are also typically soon motivated by what might be called cultural desire – by the pervasive cultural instruction that they must do it to become men, which is of course what they want to become.”
The older boys firmly believe that it is for the children’s own good. And in the long run the younger boys don’t seem to suffer poor consequences in terms of living a happy life within their community. And from the sound of it, the boys in fact were not actually beaten. The fear of punishment and the desire to become men was enough.
Because of the way we view sex in our society, this initiation might cause serious self esteem issues or highly abnormal possibly risky sexual behavior. So it’s easy for us to project that onto them. But that doesn’t seem to be the case for them.
On a certain level I’m always opposed to any coercive threatening behavior, but the fact remains that many societies as a whole threaten or beat their children to get them to conform to societal norms.